Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
User avatar
Frank Nordberg
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:24 pm
Location: Bodø, Norway

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Frank Nordberg » Sun May 12, 2019 9:08 pm

Tonit wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:33 pm
Finally the man is back in the room.
Woops! :P
But when I overdo and look at the fretting hand all the time, it actually works for the worse and none contributing to any musical results IMPO.
That's a very important point. We have to be ready to give our attention to whatever probelms that occur. And there's nothing wrong with looking towards the left hand in itself. We have to look in some direction after all. The real danger is when we get so obsessed with some details we fail to give enough attention to everything else. When we play (practising is a different questiona s others already ahve pointed out), we don't have time to concsiously control every little detail. We have to trust our well praticed (hopefully) reflexes and focus on the big picture. And we have to think forward, always have our mind a step ahead of what the fingers do. Because, after all is said and done, it's the music that matters, not the individual notes.

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Sun May 12, 2019 9:26 pm

closet guitarist wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 pm
I have to say, at least in my mind, logic is empirically determined.
Another astonishingly interesting premise if your logic is empirically determined instead of being tested and proven thereby.

closet guitarist
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by closet guitarist » Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 am

Tonit wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 9:26 pm
closet guitarist wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 pm
I have to say, at least in my mind, logic is empirically determined.
Another astonishingly interesting premise if your logic is empirically determined instead of being tested and proven thereby.
Tested and proven is the very definition of empirical. The definition of logic can be a little more vague so that is the reason I qualified my last post.

Cheers

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Mon May 13, 2019 1:02 am

closet guitarist wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 am
Tonit wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 9:26 pm
closet guitarist wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 7:21 pm
I have to say, at least in my mind, logic is empirically determined.
Another astonishingly interesting premise if your logic is empirically determined instead of being tested and proven thereby.
Tested and proven is the very definition of empirical. The definition of logic can be a little more vague so that is the reason I qualified my last post.

Cheers
So you are saying in one way or the other no logic conceptually makes sense to you before empiricically proven, as obviously my explanation calls for empirical data for you to understand.

Isn't that correct?

closet guitarist
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by closet guitarist » Mon May 13, 2019 2:06 am

To be honest Tonit I really don't understand what your "explanation" is. My query was for hard data to support the claim of looking at either hand impacted speed and precision. As I have said that has not been my experience (I could be wrong because I do not have any data either but then I have not made any such claim) so I asked for the support. There are numerous philosophical papers that argue the position I have taken regarding empiricism and logic should you be interested.

Cheers

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Mon May 13, 2019 3:19 am

closet guitarist wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:06 am
To be honest Tonit I really don't understand what your "explanation" is. My query was for hard data to support the claim of looking at either hand impacted speed and precision. As I have said that has not been my experience (I could be wrong because I do not have any data either but then I have not made any such claim) so I asked for the support. There are numerous philosophical papers that argue the position I have taken regarding empiricism and logic should you be interested.

Cheers
Now I have a question for you: Which one appears to be the longer sequence; the brain-eye-brain-finger sequence or the brain-finger sequence?

You can be as slow as you desire.

closet guitarist
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by closet guitarist » Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am

I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Mon May 13, 2019 11:17 am

closet guitarist wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am
I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.
Yeah I thought so :wink:

Cheers,

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 1912
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 am

Tonit wrote:Now I have a question for you: Which one appears to be the longer sequence; the brain-eye-brain-finger sequence or the brain-finger sequence?
You are assuming that on removing "eye" from the sequence that nothing replaces it?
closet guitarist wrote:I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.
You are correct - a sequential diagram is far too simplistic a tool to usefully convey the sophisticated multiplicity of feedback loops involved in even a straightforward position shift - aural, tactile, visual and proprioceptive responses all play their part.

Effective practice raises consciousness of these processes and yes, a routine utilised for a specific and discreet purpose may appear counter-intuitive when described sequentially.

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Tue May 14, 2019 12:36 pm

Hi Mark Clifton-Gaultier,
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 am
Tonit wrote:Now I have a question for you: Which one appears to be the longer sequence; the brain-eye-brain-finger sequence or the brain-finger sequence?
closet guitarist wrote:I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.
You are correct - a sequential diagram is far too simplistic a tool to usefully convey the sophisticated multiplicity of feedback loops involved in even a straightforward position shift - aural, tactile, visual and proprioceptive responses all play their part.
For your kindly reminder that may be uncalled for, you are verifying something different from the statement that is not answering my question.

Regards,

User avatar
lagartija
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11436
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:37 pm
Location: Western Massachusetts, USA

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by lagartija » Tue May 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Tonit wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:36 pm
Hi Mark Clifton-Gaultier,
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 am
Tonit wrote:Now I have a question for you: Which one appears to be the longer sequence; the brain-eye-brain-finger sequence or the brain-finger sequence?
closet guitarist wrote:I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.
You are correct - a sequential diagram is far too simplistic a tool to usefully convey the sophisticated multiplicity of feedback loops involved in even a straightforward position shift - aural, tactile, visual and proprioceptive responses all play their part.
For your kindly reminder that may be uncalled for, you are verifying something different from the statement that is not answering my question.

Regards,
You used the word “appears”...not everything works as it may appear to!
Our brains are capable of parallel processing of sensory input.
When I look at my left hand, I perceive all of the sensory input. That includes hearing the music being produced which controls timing of both hands.
The practice regime for learning a piece includes practice in synchronicity of touch in critical places.
So as Mark says, it is not linear even if it appears that is what you are mapping as the sequence of events.
When the sun shines, bask.
__/^^^^^o>
Classical Guitar forever!

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Tue May 14, 2019 1:42 pm

lagartija wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:23 pm
Tonit wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:36 pm
Hi Mark Clifton-Gaultier,
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 am


You are correct - a sequential diagram is far too simplistic a tool to usefully convey the sophisticated multiplicity of feedback loops involved in even a straightforward position shift - aural, tactile, visual and proprioceptive responses all play their part.
For your kindly reminder that may be uncalled for, you are verifying something different from the statement that is not answering my question.

Regards,
You used the word “appears”...not everything works as it may appear to!
Our brains are capable of parallel processing of sensory input.
When I look at my left hand, I perceive all of the sensory input. That includes hearing the music being produced which controls timing of both hands.
The practice regime for learning a piece includes practice in synchronicity of touch in critical places.
So as Mark says, it is not linear even if it appears that is what you are mapping as the sequence of events.
I understand. But what I am saying simply is that, I understand a certain concept, and is quite obvious to anyone: 2 steps is shorter than 4 steps comprising the former 2 steps plus 2 additional steps in a sequence. Simply 2 is smaller than 4. That's what I am saying, regardless of the actual working of the subject matter.

While I understand your point as a statement, nobody would be able to establish a dialogue if:
sequence
noun [ C/U ]
us ​ /ˈsi·kwəns, -ˌkwens/
a series of related things or events, or the order in which things or events follow each other:
is not linear to someone who failed to provide her answer to my question.

I just shared my understanding or construction of a post as requested together with some other requests as has been presented.

I am intriegued and curious about someone who could get more scientific or neurological or empirical and fill up all nine blackboards with formulae to finally get to a conclusion that could be as simple as EMC2 that could make sense to average people.

Cheers,

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 1912
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm

Tonit wrote:For your kindly reminder that may be uncalled for, you are verifying something different from the statement that is not answering my question.
Hi Tonit - sorry - it was not my intention to verify anything to you - I asked a question about your question (which I have not attempted to answer because I don't understand your point).

The rest of the post was addressed directly toward Closet Guitarist.

EDIT: To further clarify (maybe) - it is my experience that during practise it is sometimes useful to work sequentially on some aspect of technique as part of the process of building a discrete routine which may ultimately be initiated and left to run covertly.

A number of these covert operations may be required to run simultaneously for the successful execution of a passage.

Tonit
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Tue May 14, 2019 2:13 pm

HI Mark Clifton-Gaultier,
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
Tonit wrote:For your kindly reminder that may be uncalled for, you are verifying something different from the statement that is not answering my question.
Hi Tonit - sorry - it was not my intention to verify anything to you - I asked a question about your question (which I have not attempted to answer because I don't understand your point).

The rest of the post was addressed directly toward Closet Guitarist.
I know, hence it has been proven to be uncalled-for.

That's an option definitely for the sake of it.

BTW how do you explain flamenco guitarists who needs to be looking at dancers and singers most of, if not all, the time?

What about blind touch typing or even mouse maneuvers when working on a PC?

When driving where are you looking at? Your stick to ensure it is in the right gate everytime you shift?

If so, would it help if you look at it instead of looking at your way ahead?

Cheers,

User avatar
Lawler
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Lawler » Tue May 14, 2019 4:01 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
...it is my experience that during practise it is sometimes useful to work sequentially on some aspect of technique as part of the process of building a discrete routine which may ultimately be initiated and left to run covertly.

A number of these covert operations may be required to run simultaneously for the successful execution of a passage.
That is my experience as well.

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”