Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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closet guitarist
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by closet guitarist » Tue May 14, 2019 4:19 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 am
Tonit wrote:Now I have a question for you: Which one appears to be the longer sequence; the brain-eye-brain-finger sequence or the brain-finger sequence?
You are assuming that on removing "eye" from the sequence that nothing replaces it?
closet guitarist wrote:I don't believe the sequence is necessarily linear.
You are correct - a sequential diagram is far too simplistic a tool to usefully convey the sophisticated multiplicity of feedback loops involved in even a straightforward position shift - aural, tactile, visual and proprioceptive responses all play their part.

Effective practice raises consciousness of these processes and yes, a routine utilised for a specific and discreet purpose may appear counter-intuitive when described sequentially.
Cheers Mark

You stated it far more eloquently than I could have. To me, like you, a linear sequence to learn and establish a piece is effective but this practice is a means to bring all the "loops" together.

Tonit
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Tue May 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:45 pm
EDIT: To further clarify (maybe) - it is my experience that during practise it is sometimes useful to work sequentially on some aspect of technique as part of the process of building a discrete routine which may ultimately be initiated and left to run covertly.

A number of these covert operations may be required to run simultaneously for the successful execution of a passage.
Right on. That's what I thought Fred was sayin, and is also my experience.
The covertly run discrete routine which I referred to as subconscious-level routine is a pure mystery for me as I have noted, to respond to your politician-like statement.

Thank you again,

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Frank Nordberg
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Frank Nordberg » Sun May 19, 2019 2:09 pm

closet guitarist wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 12:26 am
Tested and proven is the very definition of empirical. The definition of logic can be a little more vague so that is the reason I qualified my last post.
Objective testing is certainly preferable but unfortunately not always an option. In this case it actually is - at least to some degree - and it's a test anybody can do:

Open an empty text document and type over and over again ... let's say sfer - 3rd, 1st, 2nd 1st finger, that shold be a key combination of suitable complexity, not to easy and not too difficult.

Do it for a minute whilst deliberately trying to steer your fingers visually, then a short break and another minute with eyes closed. Ideally it shold be done several times (sometimes starting with open eyes, sometimes with closed) to reduce the impact fatigue and external interference have on the result.

There are three relevant factors but only two can be reliably measured with this simple test: the number of repeats and the number of typos. The third (and probably most important musically) factor, time dilation, would require a more fancy setup recording the exact time for each and every keystroke.

In case somebody wants to give it a try, the best way to count is to do a search and replace, replacing the test string with nothing. The number of replacements is of course the number of correct entries and what's left in the text document afterwards, are the typos.

kirolak
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by kirolak » Sun May 19, 2019 2:26 pm

I seldom look at my left hand, as I tend to lose my place in the score if I do. . .yet in the Fughetta, I have to look during bar 8 or I produce a salad of a chord; so I have circled the next bar in red. But I am not a Great Guitarist, and perhaps I shouldn't butt in here.

Luis_Br
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Luis_Br » Fri May 24, 2019 1:04 am

It is really kind of difficult to generate data and demonstrate. It would require a lot of people doing it in a controlled way, to generate reliable data.

In the field of ideas, logic and personal experimentation, I have a different concept. I think the more different memory sources you have, the stronger and the quicker the reflex you will get.
Any course you do on memorization, you will learn to memorize in several different ways, so when you need to recall that memory, any path will work and you get it quicker.

Very slow practice is good because of that, because of memorization process. You have time to think, observe and memorize a lot of different things at the same time. So the reflex you build is stronger and the recall is more reliable and faster.

When you learn the first time it is more difficult, for sure. Reason slow practice is better. If you exchange practice with eyes closed and eyes opened, looking at the hand, it will take more time, you need to go slower to pay attention to everything. I entirely agree with this. But it doesn't mean you will end up with slow reflex. It is actually the opposite, the more associations, the quicker the reflex at the end. In the longterm, slow and deliberate practice of the details generates better technique, faster reflexes and better final performance.

musicbyandy
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by musicbyandy » Fri May 24, 2019 8:32 pm

Terpfan wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:14 pm
Musicality comes from practice. You work on phrasing in practice. It does not spontaneously occur when performing.
I think it is possible for musicality to spontaneously occur when performing. I think that sometimes musicality spontaneously occurs while performing. I might not be using the word musicality and/or spontaneously in the same way as you used musicality and/or spontaneously.

claudiabarton
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by claudiabarton » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:26 pm

Tonit wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:05 pm

If I would suggest to look at somewhere, look at a mirror in front of you when playing, checking your posture or movement from a third person perspective to compare it with what you see when pros are playing. You may have two or more mirros. I usually have two.

Example:



This seems to be unpopular among classical guitarists, but is very popular among flamenco and metal guitarists.

This is actually very helpful!
"I hired a coach to take me from confusion to the plane..."

riffmeister
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by riffmeister » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 am

Yes. Unfortunately.

robert e
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by robert e » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:40 am

Yes. Pretending that I'm very busy observing my left hand seems to be the best way to avoid looking at the audience without raising suspicions.

Tonit
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Re: Do you look at your left hand while playing the guitar??

Post by Tonit » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:27 am

claudiabarton wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:26 pm
Tonit wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:05 pm

If I would suggest to look at somewhere, look at a mirror in front of you when playing, checking your posture or movement from a third person perspective to compare it with what you see when pros are playing. You may have two or more mirros. I usually have two.

Example:



This seems to be unpopular among classical guitarists, but is very popular among flamenco and metal guitarists.

This is actually very helpful!
Alright. Happy playing Claudia.

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