Expression

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
User avatar
Rick Beauregard
Student tutor
Posts: 1678
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:23 am
Location: Blaine, WA

Re: Expression

Post by Rick Beauregard » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:02 pm

With the number of classical (including Bach), Jazz, Rock, Bossa Nova, and old standards that have been set to disco, I think, yes, there should be a federal law preventing performers from deviating from the intentions of the composer. My point is: everything in moderation. Who knows, 200 years from now people (or aliens) May be analyzing disco Bach for its artistic purity. Maybe we should have put it on the Voyager golden record.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

ronjazz
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Expression

Post by ronjazz » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:00 pm

double
Last edited by ronjazz on Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

ronjazz
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Expression

Post by ronjazz » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:03 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:00 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:19 pm
"Unfortunately, on our instrument, "expression" was set by Segovia, and it all too often included ritards and rubato where technical difficulties existed, rather than as expressive devices. The recent posting on youtube of Segovia's 1954 Paris videos really show us that even at his height, he managed to break the musical line by being too careful or insecure with his technique." RonJazz


Hi, Ron,
I watched the Paris video after your post. Could you provide just a couple of examples of this from the video? I'd like to rewatch it with the examples in mind. Thanks. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation. They both immediately interrupted the flow and, to me, detracted from the musicality. In fact, I got a kick out of Palo de Lucia commenting on how classical players will "reach a difficult phrase, then put an expressive look on their faces as they slow down to avoid making a technical mistake" (paraphrased). While he was talking about the Concierto de Aranjuez, his point is well-taken overall.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

Rognvald
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Expression

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm

"Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation. They both immediately interrupted the flow and, to me, detracted from the musicality." RonJazz

Hi, Ron,
Can you provide the point in the recording(minutes) these occur? You're not going to be cruel and make me work for it . . .are you? Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Expression

Post by Crofty » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:56 am

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm
Playing again . . . Rognvald
Whilst that is, of course, nice to hear :bravo: are you sure this is still newsworthy? :lol:

Rognvald
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Expression

Post by Rognvald » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:40 pm

Crofty wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:56 am
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm
Playing again . . . Rognvald
Whilst that is, of course, nice to hear :bravo: are you sure this is still newsworthy? :lol:
It's not a news item, Crofty . . . you're watching far too much television for your own good. PLAYING AGAIN . . . ROGNVALD
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Expression

Post by Crofty » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:40 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:40 pm


It's not a news item, Crofty . . . you're watching far too much television for your own good. PLAYING AGAIN . . . ROGNVALD
Is it the name of a piece then? And what has television [which I don't watch] got to do with it??

Rognvald
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Expression

Post by Rognvald » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:35 pm

Crofty wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:40 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:40 pm


It's not a news item, Crofty . . . you're watching far too much television for your own good. PLAYING AGAIN . . . ROGNVALD
Is it the name of a piece then? And what has television [which I don't watch] got to do with it??
O.K., Crofty,
I'm going against my better internet instincts and assume that your original question had good intentions. So, with those good intentions as a starting point, here's the rub. Among some of us . . . who have performed music inconsistently throughout our lives, there are two states of reality: playing and not playing. Many of us have chased the "Golden Calf", at times, when playing on a serious level was not possible due to time/energy restrictions. At other times, we were able to devote the time necessary to play at a performance level. So, if one and one equals two in the Hindu-Arabic Numeral System... .the term "Playing again" should be quite clear. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Expression

Post by Crofty » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:34 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:35 pm
So, if one and one equals two in the Hindu-Arabic Numeral System... .the term "Playing again" should be quite clear. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Ah well, I shall just have to remain none the wiser.

ronjazz
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Expression

Post by ronjazz » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:42 pm

So I should tag my comments with "still playing", I guess. Except virtually nobody cares.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

ronjazz
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Expression

Post by ronjazz » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:46 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm
"Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation. They both immediately interrupted the flow and, to me, detracted from the musicality." RonJazz

Hi, Ron,
Can you provide the point in the recording(minutes) these occur? You're not going to be cruel and make me work for it . . .are you? Playing again . . . Rognvald

The piece is 2 minutes long, man. Do your own homework, as I did.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

Rognvald
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Expression

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:04 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:46 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm
"Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation. They both immediately interrupted the flow and, to me, detracted from the musicality." RonJazz

Hi, Ron,
Can you provide the point in the recording(minutes) these occur? You're not going to be cruel and make me work for it . . .are you? Playing again . . . Rognvald

The piece is 2 minutes long, man. Do your own homework, as I did.


O.K., Man! Cool! Playing again . . . Rognvald Man.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Tonit
Posts: 758
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am

Re: Expression

Post by Tonit » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:09 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:03 pm
Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation.
It's G sharp diminised and not E7b9/G# that I note for the sake of confusion among the visitors.

It makes sense to rit (or pause if you like) here as it is the transitional point to Am key for a while. Like we tend to (but not always) ritardando on JSB's transposition points.

Also, the root of root-position F major seven chord (as in pop chord symbol) is the lowest note before it gets to E pedal. So that it also makes sense here to pause/ritardando to mark the point when the bass has started moving from the pedal and finally arriving at the lowest note.

This is what comes to my head as I see the performance.

Cheers,
Last edited by Tonit on Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Crofty
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:32 pm

Re: Expression

Post by Crofty » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:18 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:42 pm
So I should tag my comments with "still playing", I guess. Except virtually nobody cares.
Oh, I dunno - I think it's intriguing when you find out that someone on a guitar forum plays the guitar. :guitare:

ronjazz
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Re: Expression

Post by ronjazz » Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:40 pm

Tonit wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:09 pm
ronjazz wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:03 pm
Just a couple: in the little Dm Bach Prelude, Segovia pauses before the E7b9/G# as well as before the Fmaj7 with the 4th-finger barre; neither of these pauses is necessary nor musical, but probably a habit "practiced" into his interpretation.
It's G sharp diminised and not E7b9/G# that I note for the sake of confusion among the visitors.

It makes sense to rit (or pause if you like) here as it is the transitional point to Am key for a while. Like we tend to (but not always) ritardando on JSB's transposition points.

Also, the root of root-position F major seven chord (as in pop chord symbol) is the lowest note before it gets to E pedal. So that it also makes sense here to pause/ritardando to mark the point when the bass has started moving from the pedal and finally arriving at the lowest note.

This is what comes to my head as I see the performance.

Cheers,
It's an E7b9 that LOOKS like a diminished, it's function is to go to the Am, and there is no expressive need to pause because of a modulation, especially since the melody is in the bass. If anything, the slight pause should be on the A following the E7b9, since that's where the melody "settles". Same with the Fma7 chord: it makes more musical sense to pause ON it, not before it. As I see and hear the performance, Segovia breaks the line and flow unnecessarily, and actually destroys the expressiveness. Critics of the day remarked on that quite often, some asking if the guitarist was incapable of playing chords that weren't arpeggiated, for instance.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
Giannini 7-string with Shadow pickup
Sal Pace 7-string archtop

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”