right wrist approach

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detwidkul
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right wrist approach

Post by detwidkul » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:12 am

Hi

the right hand wrist with modern technique that to keep I straight which will have benefit on the anatomy ( I read in the internet )

my right wrist tend to move to the right ( old style ) naturally because

- when I play free stroke, I want to keep my main knuckles on top of the string or near SO my wrist bent down like claw in order to let my main knuckles position to be on top of the string or close

- then my wrist hang naturally and bent to the right


I try to turn the wrist to the left, I find that the sound is thinner because the attack angle is changed and I would need longer thumbnail to pluck the string

My nail shape follow the finger tip shapes and about 2-3 mm further the fingertip when look at palm up


**** are there any differences in approching with the straighter wrist position
need to practice more!

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Christopher Langley
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:53 am

If you aren't having physical problems.. Why change your approach?

To "turn" your wrist from what you are used to and comfortable with seems like a bad idea to me.
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Todd Tipton
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Todd Tipton » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:37 pm

detwidkul,

It is difficult to know the situation without actually seeing it first hand. However, I have a hypothesis. You have shaped your nails to sound good with the your hanging wrist. It then makes sense that your tone wouldn't be good when you align your wrist. Why? Because just as you said, the angle of attack has changed. It sounds to me like you want to have both: benefit of the anatomy, and also great tone. If this is what you want, then here is the solution: 1. reshape your nails to compliment the aligned wrist. 2. Play very simple exercises and music for a short while giving yourself the chance to get more comfortable with a new way of playing.

Here is a great video that many others have shared here:

The knowledge in the video and some more basic information may help you shape the nails to compliment an aligned wrist. Hold out your hand and look at the back of the hand with the palm down. Look at the nails and imagine that they are the face of a clock. There is a very good chance that you want the point of contact between the nail and string to be roughly at the 10 o'clock position. As the Kanengiser video explains, the shaped nail creates a ramp for the string. If the ramp is placed at the correct angle for you, it will cause the string to push downward before the release. This is what creates the good tone. As Kanengiser suggests, there are certainly other ways to shape the nail and some players have a different point of contact. However, my suggestion of the 10 o'clock position may be a great place to begin experimenting. This is what I do with almost all of my students and it works.
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ronjazz
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by ronjazz » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:20 pm

Christopher Langley, please be careful with your advice until you've played for a few years at least! I see you often giving advice in a well-meaning way, but you are by your own admission new at this, and probably not ready to teach. Todd, above, is a long-time teacher, and really delivers very good and reasoned advice, quite different from yours. "If it feels good, do it" is not really very smart over the long term.
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Christopher Langley
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:47 pm

ronjazz wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:20 pm
"If it feels good, do it" is not really very smart over the long term.
Why?

Do you have any evidence that shows that players who play with hanging wrists are more susceptible to damage?

You and Todd probabaly would have told Segovia, Presti and Bream to change their wrist angle. Hah!

(I play with a straight wrist and no nails btw, but unlike some others I realize that there are many valid ways to approach the instrument).

Todd is probabaly right about the nails being the main factor. As you say.. He's a real teacher. Listen to him, by all means.

I think if OP really wants to rework his right hand angle.. He might consider playing with no nails for a while so that they are no longer a factor. But, again.. I'm no teacher. It's just what I would do personally.

Probabaly more bad advice, But hey. I'm trying. A second opinion beats a blank. No matter how uninformed. I don't claim to be anything I'm not, just a dude on a forum. I'm bound to be wrong quite a lot. I learn from being wrong and being corrected and so does everyone else btw.

We are really all guessing because we can't see the guy play in person anyways. He's gonna have to figure it oit himself or find a teacher. So it goes.
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Terpfan
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Terpfan » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:02 am

ronjazz wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:20 pm
Christopher Langley, please be careful with your advice until you've played for a few years at least! I see you often giving advice in a well-meaning way, but you are by your own admission new at this, and probably not ready to teach. Todd, above, is a long-time teacher, and really delivers very good and reasoned advice, quite different from yours. "If it feels good, do it" is not really very smart over the long term.
I know what you mean but everyone should join in the conversation. That how we have discussion and learn.

detwidkul
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by detwidkul » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:59 am

I will upload a short clip of my practice on a simple carcassi , so it helps for proper analysis
need to practice more!

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Tomzooki
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Tomzooki » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:12 am

Christopher Langley wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:47 pm
ronjazz wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:20 pm
"If it feels good, do it" is not really very smart over the long term.
Why?

Do you have any evidence that shows that players who play with hanging wrists are more susceptible to damage?

You and Todd probabaly would have told Segovia, Presti and Bream to change their wrist angle. Hah!

......
Here in the province of Quebec Ida Presti and Alexandre Lagoya had a huge influence on a whole generation of guitarists. And a lot of guitarists of that generation, and a lot of their students, using the same technique, developed problems, forcing them to change their right hand technique, or even to quit performing. That was the case of my teacher at the conservatory, who developped focal dystonia... Liona Boyd, a pupil of Lagoya, developed also dystonia... Of course not everybody using their technique developed problems, and yes, Presti and Lagoya had a fabulous tone and were fantastic players, but that right hand technique seemed quite dangerous :?
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Terpfan
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Terpfan » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 am

Parkening had problems and I believe John Williams had problem before changing his right hand position.

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Tomzooki
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Tomzooki » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:46 am

Christopher Langley wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:53 am
If you aren't having physical problems.. Why change your approach?

To "turn" your wrist from what you are used to and comfortable with seems like a bad idea to me.
I don’t want to criticize, I believe everybody has the right to give his opinion, and it is good because it brings discussion and a lot of different ideas and suggestions.

So here I am not criticizing, and honestly I hate quarrels, but I just want to say why I don’t agree.

First why change if one has no physical problems? Simple: to avoid them. « Mieux vaut prévenir que guérir » better prevent than treat. And a better technique is more efficient, playing becomes easier and less tiresome, so playing is more satisfying and pleasurable.

Second: something may feel OK, and not be OK at all. As a kid I did not know I was short sighted, until I tried the glasses of a friend. Before that I would have thought that my sight was perfectly fine. I learned to play a couple of musical instruments, and each time I was naive enough to think I was doing things quite correctly, just to learn - with a teacher! - that I was really out of the track!! So my point here: we must not trust the feeling that things are OK.

And, by the way, I noticed from my experience (and from the students I had several years ago) that unfortunately we tend to do things NOT the good way: for clarinet and saxo, to play higher notes everybody tend to bite harder instead of open the jaw; for the flute, also for higher notes, everybody tends to pinch the lips instead of relaxing them, for the bow of the viola da gamba everybody pull the bow by distensing the elbow from the body instead of keeping the elbow along the body and extending the arm.. etc...
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
Benoît Raby, Engelmann sp/Ziricote
11-strings alto guitar by Heikki Rousu, sp/indonesian RW

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Christopher Langley
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Christopher Langley » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:21 am

At least when I give bad advice there are plenty people ready to correct me. It's really a good thing. I'm always learning at Delcamp.

I'm really glad the OP got better advice than mine and I hope he follows it.

Thanks for straightening me out and for the good responses y'all. Esp Tomzooki, I liked your response especially. You made very good points, I do believe.

Goodnight all and Best of luck to OP.
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detwidkul
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by detwidkul » Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:25 am

I am not sure this is correct way to share a short clip here


https://www.dropbox.com/s/l723cjk3ezu3j ... d.m4v?dl=0
need to practice more!

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Christopher Langley
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Christopher Langley » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:31 pm

detwidkul wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:25 am
I am not sure this is correct way to share a short clip here


https://www.dropbox.com/s/l723cjk3ezu3j ... d.m4v?dl=0
Vid worked for me.. Woah you are a good player despite this RH. Reminds me of Presti..

I think your playing style is perfectly legitimate.

However it seems you approach the strings directly and this is why you are angling the wrist.

We whom play straight-wristed attack the strings at an angle.

You straighten your wrist out to the proper angle for a second at the very end but I can see it changed the attack angle greatly.

It does look kinda hard on the wrist.. The way you play, but damn it sounds good. I'm gonna experiment a little with it today to see just how ergonomically bad it really is.


Check this out



Slide through the strings at an angle. Notice Rob actually rotates his wrist out a touch, the opposite of the way you rotste and even uses his pinkie a little bit as an anchor. His style with no nails and approaching at an angle is almost dead opposite to yours.. I still feel both are musically valid.. Although the bent wrist looks to be more physically demanding to me.

I can't speak for those with nails. But, I'm pretty sure they attack the strings at an angle too most of the time.

I really think I figured it out. Give it a try. Your knuckles have to be on a slant to play with a straight wrist. You can't line them up with the strings any more if you want to change rh wrist

If I'm wrong. Someone please chime in!
Last edited by Christopher Langley on Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tomzooki
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by Tomzooki » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:57 pm

detwidkul wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:25 am
I am not sure this is correct way to share a short clip here


https://www.dropbox.com/s/l723cjk3ezu3j ... d.m4v?dl=0
You play very well!! And your sound is really nice! Your right hand position is not extreme, and your finger movement is very good, coming mostly from the big knuckle - that is why you have that good sound. As long as you take care to keep your right hand as relaxed as possible I don’t think you are at risk of wounds, unless your aim is to become a professionnal performer. In that case, the long hours of practice and highly demanding repertoire, with that right hand position, could lead to problems.

But I think that playing a bit more « à gauche » (with a slight adaptation of the nail shape of course) could make your tone even better, particularily for the a finger on the first string. I would not do a drastic change though. Just a couple of degrees.
Miodrag Zerdoner 8 string Stauffer-Legnani
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guitarrista
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Re: right wrist approach

Post by guitarrista » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:02 pm

detwidkul wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:25 am
I am not sure this is correct way to share a short clip here


https://www.dropbox.com/s/l723cjk3ezu3j ... d.m4v?dl=0
BTW, if you can re-video this so that your right hand is square in front, it might be better, as then we can eliminate any contribution to the visible angle in this current video that comes from your hand simply hanging down from the wrist into the guitar. I find this video a bit harder to evaluate because of the filming angle.
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