Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

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bacsidoan
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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:38 pm

I like this version:


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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by barcod » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 am

Thanks for all the answers. Follow up question: in the DelCamp transcription, the last of the legato bases that start with a G does not have fingering. From the third finger on the F and second on the E, I have to think the G is open. Does that mean we hammer on the F? Playing G on the fourth string makes it prohibitively difficult; yet open-hammer-pullof doesn’t sound that pleasant.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rasqeo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am

barcod wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 am
Thanks for all the answers. Follow up question: in the DelCamp transcription, the last of the legato bases that start with a G does not have fingering. From the third finger on the F and second on the E, I have to think the G is open. Does that mean we hammer on the F? Playing G on the fourth string makes it prohibitively difficult; yet open-hammer-pullof doesn’t sound that pleasant.
I haven’t seen the transcription you refer to but I definitely wouldn’t play the G open. I play those triplets in 2nd position hammering on from the open strings to fingers 1 and 2 for the first two and then for the third triplet starting from G I hammer on from the F to the G (fingers 2 and 4) on the fourth string and play it all legato. That’s the best fingering I’ve found to play these triplets very lightly in keeping with the “murmurs” of the title. It’s difficult to begin with but it’s worth persevering with - it’s good development for the fourth finger and when you can play it up to speed it works well.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by guitarrista » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:48 pm

barcod wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 am
Thanks for all the answers. Follow up question: in the DelCamp transcription, the last of the legato bases that start with a G does not have fingering. From the third finger on the F and second on the E, I have to think the G is open. Does that mean we hammer on the F? Playing G on the fourth string makes it prohibitively difficult; yet open-hammer-pullof doesn’t sound that pleasant.
If you move to 2nd position for that sequence, you'd use 1st and 2nd LH fingers for the B-C and E-F hammer-ons from A nd D open strings for the first two triplets, then you'd start from 4th finger 4th string on G and pull-off to F and E. So the LH fingering is 0-(1-2), 0-(1-2), 4-(2-1) where the parentheses indicate slurred notes, and the open A, open D, and 4th string 5th fret G are played with the RH thumb.

It might be difficult at first to do the 4-2 pull-off, but it is a great exercise.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Rasqeo
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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rasqeo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:32 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:48 pm
barcod wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 am
Thanks for all the answers. Follow up question: in the DelCamp transcription, the last of the legato bases that start with a G does not have fingering. From the third finger on the F and second on the E, I have to think the G is open. Does that mean we hammer on the F? Playing G on the fourth string makes it prohibitively difficult; yet open-hammer-pullof doesn’t sound that pleasant.
If you move to 2nd position for that sequence, you'd use 1st and 2nd LH fingers for the B-C and E-F hammer-ons from A nd D open strings for the first two triplets, then you'd start from 4th finger 4th string on G and pull-off to F and E. So the LH fingering is 0-(1-2), 0-(1-2), 4-(2-1) where the parentheses indicate slurred notes, and the open A, open D, and 4th string 5th fret G are played with the RH thumb.

It might be difficult at first to do the 4-2 pull-off, but it is a great exercise.
Basically what I said. The only difference is I don’t start the third triplet with a RH thumb stroke. I start it with a hammer on as I find it sounds too heavy on the weak beat using the thumb.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by rayban » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:57 pm

Here's Virginia Luque's rendition:



I'm enchanted by her time feel and just the basic soulfulness of her playing. There's none of the stridency noted by Mark Clifton-Gaultier in other renditions. Her playing evokes the “murmurs” that Rasqueo suggested in his comment.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by barcod » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am
I haven’t seen the transcription you refer to ...
It is the one that you can see from "Albeniz" link at the top of this page (and every other) in the forum. My question is specifically for that notation, which implies it cannot be 4-2-1 pull-off; the D and E are already 3-2.

I have seen it played as guitarrista suggested, but the hammer on with the 4th finger is also interesting. I'll make sure I try that. In the hammer on scenario, I understand that you'll write the 6 notes attached with the arc instead of two separate 3 note arcs. In the end, I think the ultimate goal is to make the sound uniform all through 9 notes with no accents.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Todd Tipton » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:21 pm

I'm very fond of Alicia De Larrocha's interpretation as are many others. Listen to that introduction. Then listen to the La Leona video. While I didn't watch the entire video, he captures those murmurs: at least to my ears. Of course there are many ways to interpret a piece. Yet in my opinion, it is difficult to not be drawn to what La Leona and Larrocha both do. It is as if the listener is set up to expect a strong flamenco-like introduction, but instead is given something far more dramatic.
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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rasqeo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:43 pm

barcod wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:04 pm
Rasqeo wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am
I haven’t seen the transcription you refer to ...
It is the one that you can see from "Albeniz" link at the top of this page (and every other) in the forum. My question is specifically for that notation, which implies it cannot be 4-2-1 pull-off; the D and E are already 3-2.

I have seen it played as guitarrista suggested, but the hammer on with the 4th finger is also interesting. I'll make sure I try that. In the hammer on scenario, I understand that you'll write the 6 notes attached with the arc instead of two separate 3 note arcs. In the end, I think the ultimate goal is to make the sound uniform all through 9 notes with no accents.
Okay yes I think in that case he wants you to play the G on the open third string then hammer-on from nothing onto the F. You can make it work if you make sure you catch the third string with your 3rd finger when you do the hammer-on to stop it from ringing. I don’t think it’s the best fingering to be honest but it will at least be good for developing fingers 2 and 3.

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Alexander Kalil
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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Alexander Kalil » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 pm

barcod wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:15 am
in the DelCamp transcription, the last of the legato bases that start with a G does not have fingering .. Playing G on the fourth string makes it prohibitively difficult
If you replace 3 by 4 in the first two triplets of the measure, you may find that playing the last triplet on the 4th string, using 4-2-1, is no longer prohibitively difficult.

@ Rasqeo and Guitarrista - I think you're referring to arrangements with no accompaniment to the bass line in mm 7 and 11-13. The Delcamp arrangement invloves an accompaniment on the second beat that rules out the fingering 0-1-2 for the bass.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rognvald » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:01 pm

Some interesting thoughts here. Perhaps, what we are experiencing in the versions of Romero, Luque, and Lieske is their desire to allow the piece to breathe more naturally in a less frenzied interpretation as well as the use of dynamics without histrionics? There is certainly a very distinct difference between these performances and that of J. Vieaux although, in the case of Luque, it dragged a bit too much for my tastes in places. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by barcod » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:19 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 pm
... using 4-2-1, is no longer prohibitively difficult.
Well that's true, but my main aim was to understand the intent of Mr. Delcamp and if anyone else starts with an open G and has had success that way, if I was reading the score right.

I wish there was a way to @Mention someone in these forums to get their attention.

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rasqeo » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:38 am

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:06 pm

@ Rasqeo and Guitarrista - I think you're referring to arrangements with no accompaniment to the bass line in mm 7 and 11-13. The Delcamp arrangement invloves an accompaniment on the second beat that rules out the fingering 0-1-2 for the bass.
Yes that’s right I don’t play those notes. It’s a question of sacrificing fidelity to the original score for playability. All the guitar versions on the videos in this thread do the same I believe. Pepe maybe plays the open B but then you have the problem of stopping it if you want to be true to the original score as it should be a staccato note. It’s barely perceivable at speed anyway so Pepe just lets it ring. There are other places in the score where compromises have to be made in the transcription in order to make it work on the guitar, especially in the B section. I don’t want to offend anyone but the fingering in the version the OP is referring to isn’t very playable imo. (I’m willing to be corrected on that if someone can demonstrate it being played well).

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Alexander Kalil » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:00 pm

Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:38 am
I don’t play those notes. It’s a question of sacrificing fidelity to the original score for playability. All the guitar versions on the videos in this thread do the same I believe .. the open B .. you have the problem of stopping it if you want to be true to the original score as it should be a staccato note.
Why should stopping the open B and staccato be a problem? Just place the finger back on the string it has just plucked! And for that matter, I wonder what makes the extensive staccato marks in the original so problematic that virtually only pianists seem willing to honor them, judging by the examples above. It is as if the guitar is inherently incapable of articulating the way the piano can.

I’m willing to be corrected on that if someone can demonstrate it being played well
Here is a guick read-through of the first page of the Delcamp arrangement with all notes and staccati:

www.soundcloud.com/user-720446060/alben ... leta-intro

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Re: Rumores de la Caleta by Albeniz

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:41 pm

Alexander Kalil wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:00 pm
Rasqeo wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:38 am
I don’t play those notes. It’s a question of sacrificing fidelity to the original score for playability. All the guitar versions on the videos in this thread do the same I believe .. the open B .. you have the problem of stopping it if you want to be true to the original score as it should be a staccato note.
Why should stopping the open B and staccato be a problem? Just place the finger back on the string it has just plucked! And for that matter, I wonder what makes the extensive staccato marks in the original so problematic that virtually only pianists seem willing to honor them, judging by the examples above. It is as if the guitar is inherently incapable of articulating the way the piano can.

I’m willing to be corrected on that if someone can demonstrate it being played well
Here is a guick read-through of the first page of the Delcamp arrangement with all notes and staccati:

www.soundcloud.com/user-720446060/alben ... leta-intro
Thanks for the response Alexander. You’ve convinced me it’s playable, at least at that tempo, which is slower than many would play it. I think the main rational for the way I play the triplets is that I can get a light, legato sound which I don’t think I would be able to get using the Delcamp fingering. In any case, I enjoyed your performance - bravo!

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