Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

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tejjy
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Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by tejjy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:56 pm

I
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I'm curious as to how to think about (and perhaps then play) the timings in the above measures. I'd probably be curious even if they weren't in an exam piece, but since they are, and I may end up playing it, I'm also interested because of what the examiner may be considering (other than what time they can go home).

So, in 20-26 there's a surfeit of 1/8 notes in the downward stems. I assume that's just an economical way of showing that the the 1st bass note should be sustained as long as possible?

Then in 23-24 there are only 10/16 worth of upward stems in a 4/4 section. In 25-27(28) there are 14/16 worth. I like to get rhythmic issues sorted out early in learning a piece, so any advice/input will be appreciated
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robert e
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by robert e » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:04 pm

[mod edit: copyrighted music. Search yuotube: Leo Brouwer - Nuevos Estudios Sencillos for Guitar (Score video)]

[mod edit: copyrighted music. Search youtube: 05 Nuevos Estudios Sencillos de Leo Brouwer - Homenaje a Tarrega - Cecilio Perera (AUDIO)

robert e
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by robert e » Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:28 am

Sorry for the cryptic response above.

Are you seeing two voices or three?

I'm a terrible reader, and my interpretations of notation should be considered highly suspect, but what strikes me initially is not so much a surfeit of notes here, or a shortfall there, but an absence of rests. Combined with the odd tie/grace in the bass voice, I take that as an invitation to let strings ring freely throughout, campanella style, without being too fussy about note values one way or the other. That, to me, is consistent with the indicated fingerings, and with the "comodo" (comfortable) direction. For the same reason, I would not play this too fast nor too slow, but at a pace that shows off the ringing voices to best effect.

Also, this Brouwer fan thanks you for drawing my attention to the Nuevos Estudios--I knew they were out there, but hadn't given them a proper look or listen until now.

Guero
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by Guero » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:31 pm

I am sorry that I don't see the problem. Maybe I don't understand the question..
What do you mean with "surfeit of notes"?
Do you have a problem with the rhythm -the counting- or with the different "voices"?

Does it help when you keep in mind to play all the downward stems with p? Put the emphasis on the downwards stems (the melody) and play the upwards very piano. Play the "groove" with p.

Btw this is a typical "Brouwer" theme, similar to the Decameron Negro II.

tejjy
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by tejjy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:06 am

By "surfeit of notes" I mean that I can count more 8th notes than the time signature, so (for example) in 20 I count one dotted quarter note = 3 * 1/8 note plus 4 1/8 notes for a total of 7 in a bar labelled 5/8.

However, I think robert e's question about 3 voices may be the answer. I was thinking of it as only 2.

I'm working hard on the different stroke strength - at the moment all the digits are inclined to follow each other's example. That's why we have studies, right? I love Brouwer - but it will be a while before my technique is up to him.

tejjy
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by tejjy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:11 am

robert e wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:28 am
Sorry for the cryptic response above.

Are you seeing two voices or three?

I'm a terrible reader, and my interpretations of notation should be considered highly suspect, but what strikes me initially is not so much a surfeit of notes here, or a shortfall there, but an absence of rests. Combined with the odd tie/grace in the bass voice, I take that as an invitation to let strings ring freely throughout, campanella style, without being too fussy about note values one way or the other. That, to me, is consistent with the indicated fingerings, and with the "comodo" (comfortable) direction. For the same reason, I would not play this too fast nor too slow, but at a pace that shows off the ringing voices to best effect.

Also, this Brouwer fan thanks you for drawing my attention to the Nuevos Estudios--I knew they were out there, but hadn't given them a proper look or listen until now.
My 2nd question was about the absence of rests - I had tentatively posed something like your answer for that, but nice to discuss things. I think by seeing it as 3 voices (I was looking at it as 2) I may subdue my confusion. Of course, that's only mental confusion. I still will need to sort out the digital chaos. Brouwer is my next personal project. This is my 1st piece. Articulating voices isn't my best thing...

robert e
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by robert e » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:36 pm

tejjy wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:11 am
Articulating voices isn't my best thing...
I'm far from an expert, but at first glance I think you may be in luck with this piece because Brouwer has largely done the work for you. I'd have to take a closer look, but it looks to me like the voices here are often assigned separate strings, and when they share a string, they seem to assign themselves naturally to different RH fingers. In fact, one might think it's a tutorial on the very topic, or a... study? :D

Your job then is to understand and communicate this design and what it might express, watching for any nuances in the pattern, especially at cadences and between phrases.

I wonder if Brouwer is telling us that this is a characteristic of Tarrega's style... Are there any composers' notes in your edition?

Guero
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Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by Guero » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:27 pm

Now I see your points..
tejjy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:56 pm
I assume that's just an economical way of showing that the the 1st bass note should be sustained as long as possible?
Correct!
Bar 20: As there is no single sign for a 5/8 note they/he decided to put the longest possible one, a 3/8. Notice that all the bass notes are tied! Let them ring throughout the bar (see also below).
So no need for extra rest signs. Keeps the sheet tidy and clear.


robert e wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:36 pm


I wonder if Brouwer is telling us that this is a characteristic of Tarrega's style... Are there any composers' notes in your edition?
Brouwer is telling us:

"This study introduces tremolos of 3 notes (acting as a preparation for the more usual 4 note version)
[...]"


robert e wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 3:28 am
Combined with the odd tie/grace in the bass voice, I take that as an invitation to let strings ring freely throughout, campanella style
Right. That's why there are these "odd" ties..
Underneath the first bar of this piece you can read "l.v. sempre" which shouldn't be that difficult to translate into english (lasciare vibrare - let vibrate)

Greetings, Güero.

tejjy
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Location: Geelong

Re: Notation/interpretation - Brouwer's "...a Tarrega"

Post by tejjy » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:48 am

Thanks Guero - appreciate your time & patience

"lasciare vibrare" isn't that hard to translate - but "l.v." isn't quite so clear :D

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