Strange Bedfellows?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Rognvald
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Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:55 pm

O.K. boys and girls . . . get your minds out of the gutter and back to CG. So, for the last month, I have been working my beloved 1966 Gibson ES Jazz Guitar into my daily practice. Since it is an acoustic-electric instrument, the neck, bridge, and nut are very similar to the set up of my Classical guitars with the exception that I'm playing D'Addario ECG24 Chromes Flat Wound Medium Tension strings(metal) not CG strings. And, after a few weeks of playing, I've noticed that the physical clarity of my playing when I switch to the CG has become noticeable cleaner in difficult stretches and when using non-standard fingerings. For those of us who dabble in the dark Arts of Jazz and Bossa and play both Classical and Electric instruments, does this make any sense or am I descending into the dark chamber of obsession once again? Playing again . . . Rognvald
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"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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RJVB
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by RJVB » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:36 am

Interesting; the general consensus seems to be that nylon strings require a much more precise technique, and that the benefit usually goes to the opposite side.

You mention non-standard fingerings and difficult stretches. If you encounter them much more often on the dark side than on CG, and play/practice them without the apprehension that might accompany them in repertoire where they are indeed not common, then yeah, I'd expect that experience to carry over.

There's another, similar effect that may be at play: that of taking a break. I remember wondering with fellow violinists, long ago, how you could have passages over which you just kept stumbling, always at the same place. Then you'd go on a trip for a couple of weeks without touching an instrument at all, and then upon your return that passage would just play itself perfectly. For a while at least, because I think there's a bit of euphoria involved.
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:56 pm

As usual, RJ . . . great response. Thanks for your feedback. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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bear
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by bear » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:20 pm

Before switching to cg, I played a Gibson ES 335. I played mostly jazz. My ageing and injured hands forced me to give up steel string for the wider nylon necks.
I missed the 335 and regretted selling it but it was just collecting dust. Awhile back, my wife bought me an Ibanez Artcore. I've regained some of the ability to play, although not as well as when I was 20. It's my Tuesday guitar.
Working my hands everyday on the cg has helped my flexibility. BTW, nice arch top, if you ever need a babysitter.....

I'm using Thomastik-Infeld Jazz BeBop Series BB112 Electric Guitar Strings 12-50.
2019 Gretsch G9126 432mm
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Giustina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

Tonit
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Tonit » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:58 pm

Nice guitar.
I have got a 165SE from 1992 that I have long missed while playing a Schecter Jazz Elite.
I also double but in fact quinterple with a classical, a flamenco, a Godin and a solid Ibanez, I set up the Jazz Elite at hand closer to the Ibanez with daddario flat wounds. They are all different animals to me.

The left hand benefit may be true, though the right (with a good old tortex orange medium pick) usually gets dull after a while, and usually it takes 2-3 weeks to recover.

I could possibly do away with the pick, but there are some techniques like economy picking or picking harmonics or otherwise I need to use a pick.

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm

Thanks, Tonit and Bear for the responses! This is the advantage of having a Forum with a healthy mix of musicians and styles. I'm playing medium tension strings now on the Gibson but think I'm going to try the light tension since the mediums are a greater effort to play than the high tension strings I play on my CG's. Perhaps the greater effort required to play the Gibson with the medium strings has made it easier to play my concert CG's. The beat goes on . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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RJVB
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by RJVB » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:24 pm

Are we talking effort in the fretting or in the plucking hand here? Action on steel string guitars is often so low that it seems people are playing them without any effort at all...
Gretsch G9240 "Alligator" wood-body resonator converted to non-metal strings (China, 2018?)
Bolink baroque violin (Hilversum, 1982)
Formerly: Brian Cohen baroque violin (London, 1985), Nadegini modern violin (Paris, 1924)

Luis_Br
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 pm

I think it is a similar effect as I commented here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128545#p1368829

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:51 pm

RJVB wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:24 pm
Are we talking effort in the fretting or in the plucking hand here? Action on steel string guitars is often so low that it seems people are playing them without any effort at all...

Hi, RJ,
Fretting hand. In regards to RH playing, I use a combination of pick/nails. The pick is for melody/improvisation and generally, nails for comping chords although both can be used in some situations which requires much practice. Thanks. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:53 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:26 pm
I think it is a similar effect as I commented here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=128545#p1368829

Good point about the capo, Luis...I agree. Playing again . . .Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

riffmeister
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by riffmeister » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:53 pm

RJVB wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:36 am
Interesting; the general consensus seems to be that nylon strings require a much more precise technique, and that the benefit usually goes to the opposite side.
This is what I believe to be true in my case.

Tonit
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Tonit » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:42 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm
I'm playing medium tension strings now on the Gibson but think I'm going to try the light tension since the mediums are a greater effort to play than the high tension strings I play on my CG's.
True. But I recall some guitars are OK with hard flatwounds like Paker Fly that Pat Martino was once using.

I am more of fusion school like Mike Stern or Pat Metheny so my flatwounds start from .11 with a quite low front PU. This way I can have more even intonation (more even dynamics) and more body resonance. Yes I bend flatwounds but not like spaghetti.

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:06 pm

Tonit wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:42 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:16 pm
I'm playing medium tension strings now on the Gibson but think I'm going to try the light tension since the mediums are a greater effort to play than the high tension strings I play on my CG's.
True. But I recall some guitars are OK with hard flatwounds like Paker Fly that Pat Martino was once using.

I am more of fusion school like Mike Stern or Pat Metheny so my flatwounds start from .11 with a quite low front PU. This way I can have more even intonation (more even dynamics) and more body resonance. Yes I bend flatwounds but not like spaghetti.

What are you using, T and why would you prefer them over the D'Addario's? Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Tonit
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Tonit » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:20 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:06 pm
What are you using, T and why would you prefer them over the D'Addario's? Playing again . . . Rognvald
D'Addario flatwounds from .11.

As you see oftentimes many contemporary players have their front pickup set at very low height (and thus more clearance between the strings and pole pieces).

Lowering the front pickup (PU) can help reducing a sort of compressed sound as you pluck the strings harder, can capture more body vibration, and will sound more natural IMPO.

You can try if you have a guitar with a front PU, and the PU height is adjustable.

Rognvald
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Re: Strange Bedfellows?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:24 pm

Tonit wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:20 pm
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:06 pm
What are you using, T and why would you prefer them over the D'Addario's? Playing again . . . Rognvald
D'Addario flatwounds from .11.

As you see oftentimes many contemporary players have their front pickup set at very low height (and thus more clearance between the strings and pole pieces).

Lowering the front pickup (PU) can help reducing a sort of compressed sound as you pluck the strings harder, can capture more body vibration, and will sound more natural IMPO.

You can try if you have a guitar with a front PU, and the PU height is adjustable.

Hi, T,
I'll try it when I get home. Right now, I'm breathing the hot sea air and an approaching storm front in, thankfully, safe waters. Thanks again. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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