Octave Treble Clef?

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classicalgas

Octave Treble Clef?

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:32 am

In the Collection of classical guitar sheet music for Level 1, a question was asked about the number 8 printed below the treble clef symbol on much of the music. Freeman posted the following answer but as a novice, I’m not sure I understand it, nor have I seen it in my admittedly limited studies. Could someone please elaborate the concept of “transposing instruments” where the music has one key notation but it’s to be played in another key as represented by the "Octave Treble Clef"?
Freeman wrote:Transposing instruments are notated in one key on paper, yet sound another key when they are performed.

Octave treble clef - This is a normal treble clef symbol with the number 8 printed above or below. The addition of the number 8 directs the musician to perform the music an octave higher than indicated (with the number 8 printed above) or an octave lower than indicated (with the number 8 printed below).

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:41 am

allright,

all guitar music is written in octave treble clef. They just don't bother to put the little 8 at the bottom of the clef.

what this means is that when you play a middle C on the guitar, a C below the staff that is, that C is actually the C above middle C.

in other words, every note you play on the guitar sounds an octave higher than what is written on the paper.

this clef is sometimes called the "tenor" clef, I think.

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:06 pm

When we play middle C it is not middle C? I guess I'm dense, but this makes no sense to me. All you've done is repeat the same thing that Freeman posted.

anathem

Post by anathem » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:11 pm

classicalgas wrote:When we play middle C it is not middle C? I guess I'm dense, but this makes no sense to me. All you've done is repeat the same thing that Freeman posted.
actually it'snot the same thing that florentin said -he was talking about the little 8 under the clef,explaining what it is and what it means and also making the important note that most times the little 8 is not indicated UNDER the clef as it should be.what didn't you understand?

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:30 pm

I don't understand thsi...
what this means is that when you play a middle C on the guitar, a C below the staff that is, that C is actually the C above middle C.

in other words, every note you play on the guitar sounds an octave higher than what is written on the paper.
which seems to say that middle C isn't middle C???
I've never heard of or seen this before.
color me very confused???

anathem

Post by anathem » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:32 pm

no it's not the middle c as written -well actually it is but on the guitar it sounds an octave lower (try playing the same c on different instrument with an electronic pitch measuring device you'll see the difference in hertz's)

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:40 pm

allright, listen

you know we have this thing called "concert pitch"

that means the "real" sound you are hearing

Examples:
when you play a written C on a clarinet, you will actually hear a
"concert" B flat, because the clarinet is a B flat instrument

when you play a written C on an Alto Saxophone, you will actually
hear a "concert" E flat, because the Alto Sax is an E flat instrument

when you play a written middle C on the guitar, you will actually hear a
"concert" high C, because the guitar is tuned an octave higher than the
written note

so, if you play any note from a guitar score, it will actually sound an
octave higher that the written note. You can try this by yourself: play
a middle C on the piano, and then a middle C on the guitar - they will
sound an octave apart

Russell

Post by Russell » Fri Oct 07, 2005 5:47 pm

ha ha, hey Florentin, the piano analogy is much clearer for early students, such as I, thanks.

I was beginning to think this was a flashback to the "Abbot & Costello" "Who's on first" comedy routine ha ha. :grire:

Thanks for clearing it up,:pace:

Russ :)
Last edited by Russell on Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

anathem

Post by anathem » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:02 pm

that was very clear florentin couldn't have put it better myself..and actually i didn't :lol: 8)

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:07 pm

Ok, this is finally beginning to make sense to me, BUT...
you two need to get on the same page...
anathem wrote:no it's not the middle c as written -well actually it is but on the guitar it sounds an octave lower
Florentin wrote:so, if you play any note from a guitar score, it will actually sound an octave higher that the written note
which is correct?

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:11 pm

it will sound higher

from a guitar score, if you play a middle C on your guitar, it will actually sound an octave higher

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:18 pm

Thank you for the explanation. This makes sense now.

So, how then does this also relate to "alternate tunings" of the guitar?
I assume you still "play" the note as written, but you get a different note sound? Am I making sense here?

anathem

Post by anathem » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:22 pm

it will sound higher i said the same thing:
no it's not the middle c as written -well actually it is
but not expressed it as i should have :lol:

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:42 pm

alternate tunnings are simply different ways to tune the guitar

for example:
a lot of renaissance music uses a F# for the third string, instead of a G

a lot of guitar music asks for a D on the sixth string, instead of an E

Sevilla by Albeniz: you tune the bottom two strings to a G and a D,
respectively

there's also "open tunnings": this means that if you strum all the open
strings, it will actually be a chord: like an E Major Chord or something.
This kind of tunning is used in modern music

the bottom line is this: yes, you can change the tunning of the guitar, to get different sounds, but the notes you are playing will still sound an octave higher than what is written.

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:52 pm

Florentin wrote:alternate tunnings are simply different ways to tune the guitar
I understand this part.

What I was trying to ask was about how one plays when you use an alternate tuning.

As you wrote...
Florentin wrote:a lot of guitar music asks for a D on the sixth string, instead of an E
which is, I believe, what people call "drop D" tuning where you've re-tuned the E (6th) string to D, right?

When you read the music, you're still seeing an "E" in the score that would normally be played on the open 6th string. So you still pluck the 6th string, but you now hear a "D" note because of the alternating tuning, correct?

And you do the same with other tunings, so you play the E or what ever note is shown in the score, but what you hear is whatever note the alternate tuning has replaced it with. Am I correct?

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