Octave Treble Clef?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:59 pm

no, that would be too confusing... :shock:

when you play with alternate tunnings, you have to re-learn the notes on those strings that you tunned differently

so, dropped D... you have to re-learn the notes on the sixth string:
open=D, 1st fret=D#, 2nd fret=E, 3rd fret=F

plus, you are going to see the notes you are hearing, printed on the page:
when you play open, you'll see a low D, on the fourth ledger line (not an E, because you are actually playing a D)

tenn

Post by tenn » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:00 pm

Hello Classicalgas. I think you have it now but I just want to add this.

It guitar music was written in the treble clef the way it sounds, a lot of the notes would be above the clef on those little extra ledger lines. In other words, a lot of our music doesn't fall on the treble clef. This would be quite difficult to read, so someone had the bright idea of shifting all the written notes down so they would mostly be on those 5 lines and 4 spaces.
This is done purely to make it easier to read. Admittedly, the bass notes would be easier to read if they'd left them alone but I suppose you can't have it every way.
You just have to realise that when you are thinking of playing with other instruments. If they played our notes as written they would be an octave below us. When we play on our own or with other guitarists, it doesn't matter.

Thomas

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:19 pm

Florentin wrote:no, that would be too confusing... :shock:

when you play with alternate tunnings, you have to re-learn the notes on those strings that you tunned differently
wow, that seems more confusing to me!
but let me see if I've got this straight...
Florentin wrote:so, dropped D... you have to re-learn the notes on the sixth string: open=D, 1st fret=D#, 2nd fret=E, 3rd fret=F
plus, you are going to see the notes you are hearing, printed on the page:
when you play open, you'll see a low D, on the fourth ledger line (not an E, because you are actually playing a D)
So, you'll see the D on the 4th line, and you'll play it on the open 6th string now? And to play the 2nd fret (6th string) E you'd have to see the note where?

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:24 pm

you would see that E in the same place you saw it before on the staff...


listen friend,

you would see the notes on the same place on the staff, YOU WOULD JUST PLAY THEM IN A DIFFERENT SPOT THAN BEFORE"

the notes do not change their place on the staff. You just play them in different frets when you change the tunning

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:57 pm

Florentin wrote:you would see that E in the same place you saw it before on the staff...


listen friend,

you would see the notes on the same place on the staff, YOU WOULD JUST PLAY THEM IN A DIFFERENT SPOT THAN BEFORE"

the notes do not change their place on the staff. You just play them in different frets when you change the tunning
you know, I said I was a beginner. I'm just starting out and trying to understand something, so pardon me for being stupid and thanks for shouting! I'll be sure and ask another question. see ya

faben2005

Post by faben2005 » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:58 pm

ok to clear up some confusion, unless you have some type of weird guitar, all guitar music is written and octave HIGHER than it is played. this means that the c on the b string first fret is middle c. the guitar sounds ONE octave lower than it is written. e.g. say a violin plays there open g string, the lowest pitch they have, the first g below middle c. this is are open g string or 3rd string. i think you must be confused florentin. because the guitar does not sound an octave ABOVE the violin, it s an octave BELOW.

Just to clear up any confusion, the guitar SOUNDS 1 octave lower than it is written, thats why some older guitar scores have an 8 underneath the treble clef to signify that the music Sounds on octave lower on the guitar than it is actually written

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:59 pm

tenn wrote:Hello Classicalgas. I think you have it now but I just want to add this.

It guitar music was written in the treble clef the way it sounds, a lot of the notes would be above the clef on those little extra ledger lines. In other words, a lot of our music doesn't fall on the treble clef. This would be quite difficult to read, so someone had the bright idea of shifting all the written notes down so they would mostly be on those 5 lines and 4 spaces.
This is done purely to make it easier to read. Admittedly, the bass notes would be easier to read if they'd left them alone but I suppose you can't have it every way.
You just have to realise that when you are thinking of playing with other instruments. If they played our notes as written they would be an octave below us. When we play on our own or with other guitarists, it doesn't matter.

Thomas
thank you for your kind explanation

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:01 pm

faben2005 wrote:ok to clear up some confusion, unless you have some type of weird guitar, all guitar music is written and octave HIGHER than it is played. this means that the c on the b string first fret is middle c. the guitar sounds ONE octave lower than it is written. e.g. say a violin plays there open g string, the lowest pitch they have, the first g below middle c. this is are open g string or 3rd string. i think you must be confused florentin. because the guitar does not sound an octave ABOVE the violin, it s an octave BELOW.

Just to clear up any confusion, the guitar SOUNDS 1 octave lower than it is written, thats why some older guitar scores have an 8 underneath the treble clef to signify that the music Sounds on octave lower on the guitar than it is actually written
thank you for your kind explanation

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:03 pm

It might be nice for some of you "experts" to remember that some of us don't have teachers (that's part of why we're here) and some of us are very much beginners. So we ask "stupid" questions. If you don't feel like being patient, don't bother posting.

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:56 am

I was not using the bold letters to "scream"

I was simply trying to make my explanation more clear

I am not an "expert"

at no point in our conversation did I lose my patience

you had the wrong impression

If you want to pick an argument, you have the wrong person
Last edited by Florentin Tise on Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.

Florentin Tise

Post by Florentin Tise » Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:05 am

faben2005 wrote:ok to clear up some confusion,

I think you must be confused florentin. because the guitar does not sound an octave ABOVE the violin, it s an octave BELOW.

Just to clear up any confusion, the guitar SOUNDS 1 octave lower than it is written, thats why some older guitar scores have an 8 underneath the treble clef to signify that the music Sounds on octave lower on the guitar than it is actually written
yes, you are right.

what I should have said: the guitar notes sound an octave lower than what is written on the page.

I stand corrected
thank you for clearing this out

It's not the first time I am wrong. :)

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:14 am

Florentin wrote:I was not using the bold letters to "scream"

I was simply trying to make my explanation more clear

I am not an "expert"

at no point in our conversation did I lose my patience

you had the wrong impression

If you want to pick an argument, you have the wrong person
CAPITALized letters and BOLD CAPITALIZED letters are extremely rude in web etiquette. You might think about that, as you needed no such symbolism to make your point.

You claim to be a music teacher and yet you gave incorrect, conflicting information with a patronizing attitude that compounded my confusion in your answers to my inexperienced questions and copped an attitude when I asked for clarification when you address me with "listen friend" and all of your bold and capitalization.

I’ve only been at it for a few months after fooling around with the guitar years ago. I can’t find a teacher who’s willing to take on an adult of my age. So I’m doing the best I can on my own right now. Don’t you remember what it’s like to be a complete beginner, or did you just instantaneously absorb all this?

Your attitude is exhibited again when instead of saying "I'm sorry you misunderstood my motive and I'm sorry I confused you" you accuse me of trying to "pick an argument". I wasn't trying to "pick and argument", I was pointing out rude behavior and attitude on your part that offended me.

It's a shame, because you obviously are knowledgeable and can, and have ,offered helpful info to others without such attitude. I’ve looked at your other posts, the attitude slips in there often. I hope you show more patience and understanding with your own students than you have shown me.

tenn

Post by tenn » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:21 am

classicalgas wrote:
Florentin wrote:you would see that E in the same place you saw it before on the staff...


listen friend,

you would see the notes on the same place on the staff, YOU WOULD JUST PLAY THEM IN A DIFFERENT SPOT THAN BEFORE"

the notes do not change their place on the staff. You just play them in different frets when you change the tunning
you know, I said I was a beginner. I'm just starting out and trying to understand something, so pardon me for being stupid and thanks for shouting! I'll be sure and ask another question. see ya
Hello Classicalgas.
I was not aware that bold or capitalised words were considered rude so I did not read Florentin's post in the way you did.
Sometimes in speech we need to stress words to make a point clearly. Faben, for example stressed the words "above" and "below" to good effect. I think this argument started because you misunderstood Florentin's intention. If you think about it, he is offering advice because he cares. Otherwise, why bother. He could be off playing his guitar instead. In all of his other posts he offers helpful, constructive criticism and advice.


Thomas

tenn

Post by tenn » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:26 am

On the subject of dropped "D" tuning and reading it in music, you will understand it better when you try it. You're trying to understand it in the abstract, which is more difficult than the reality. Try it and you will see it is really no big deal to read an "E" in it's usual place on the page but ON THIS OCCASION to play it at the 2nd fret.

Thomas

classicalgas

Post by classicalgas » Sat Oct 08, 2005 5:08 pm

tenn wrote:I think this argument started because you misunderstood Florentin's intention.
There is no argument.

Florentin's answers confused me and in part turned out to be incorrect, as he acknowledged but not to me. That is not helpful for a beginner. His tone was patronizing and that tone exists in his other postings. Period.

Why not let him speak for himself?

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