In search of diverse arpeggio studies

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
Chris Davis

Post by Chris Davis » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:25 pm

Sanft1 wrote: So I started practicing dedillo and tone repetitions with every single finger including p.
could you explain more?

I don't really get what you mean... Thanks!

tomc

Post by tomc » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:43 pm

Hi Chris i don't know if Clemens is gone for the night, He is afterall in Germany. I can tell you this till he gets here that dedillo was a 19th century technique where the back of the nail played a note on a return stroke after having played a note in the normal manner. It would be like using the individual finger nail like a pick. I imagine you could get a bit of speed for ornaments perhaps? and just my thinking stroking with the back of the nail would use extensor muscles where regular strokes both free and rest use flexors. Sounds like an approach addressing muscular balance of the fingers. We'll have to wait and see.

bones

Post by bones » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:52 pm

I use a technique in practice only to strengthen the extensors where i play the strings with the opposite action to the normal stroke exactly as described with the back of the nail. I also apply it to the thumb and use the Guiliani studies as the L. H. pattern or a single string scale but I didn't realise it was called 'dedillo'.

Scott_Kritzer
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:32 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Post by Scott_Kritzer » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:55 pm

Sanf1

I do this - is this what you do:

P plays, I extends
I plays, M extends
M plays, I extends
I plays and the hand is in a fist.

I do exercises for alternation - they are based on the fact that as soon as your playing finger flexes your non-playing finger should extend. In other words they move simultaneously, in opposed motion, almost gaining energy from one another.

This also requires that the fingers move in a non-restricted way, with a full range of motion, which helps keep the hand loose and the fingers relaxed and fast....

Nice discussing this with you!
Classical Guitarist Scott Kritzer

User avatar
Sanft
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Somewhere over the... ah, forget it: Germany

Post by Sanft » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:14 am

So we have to go into detail! Cool! As Scott already described, the movement of rh fingers is made up of flexing and extending. And it is the importance of the extension part that most guitarists are not aware of! This I call “balanced movement”. Here you can download a summary of the rh exercises I use on a daily basis to train extension mainly:
viewtopic.php?p=54799#54799
The “dedillo” (literally “little finger”), the mechanics already described by tomc, is a technique nowadays mainly used in flamenco music. I use it EXCLUSIVELY for the purpose of exercise. But there it is of the greatest value! The goal is to achieve a tremolo-rasgueado of even tempo and sound. If you manage THIS, there’s not much that can happen to you anymore.
To practise the rasgueado you press for example the a finger tightly against the rh palm and then with great force hit the strings (I have an extra guitar, a cheap one, to do this. I wouldn’t practise that on my Dammann!!). Each finger has to be practised individually first that way. Don’t hurt yourself! This takes time! After a few months this produces a noticeable gain in i/m speed and sound. To further support the effect and to protect the nails I enclose them in adhesive plaster while practising. And, Scott, the movements that you described above are contained in these exercises, just in a different way. To illustrate what you call "alternation" to my students I use the picture of an uninterrupted military march or, for the peacenics :lol:, a walk!
Clemens … el niño que soñó la musica :fume:
"...si nos quedáramos cuarenta y ocho horas seguidas sin música, habria una catástrofe mundial." Leo Brouwer
7stringed Matthias Dammann 1997; 9stringed Neuner&Hornsteiner ~ 1880
7stringed 1829 Staufer/Legnani replica by F. P. Dietrich 2007

bones

Post by bones » Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:11 am

Thanks that's excellent , I have a feeling there will be further questions though! =)

Scott_Kritzer
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:32 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Post by Scott_Kritzer » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:46 pm

Sanf1

Sorry I can't see the link - for some reason I'm not allowed access. I wish I could see your exercise. Even more fun would be to sit down and go over all this good stuff in person! I'm sure I'd enjoy the experience!!

From what I can tell you're doing great work with your guitar work and your students- BRAVO!!

I tend to keep my approach simple, (minded?), using alternation and sympathetic motion as the basis for my right hand. I find it quite adequate to practice their fruition in the basics; scales and arpeggios. with repertoire integration. (Pulling scales and arpeggios out of pieces that I'm playing, or would like to play someday).

I don't have students do much by way of other exercises. But I further these motions, in my technique practice, with specific joint movement work, i.e. the coordination and cooperation of flexing and extending from the middle knuckle and large joint. When these knuckles are moving in a concerted effort, (and each knuckle has it's own role in extension and flexcion), speed is attained rather effortlessly, well, relatively speaking.

If I'm reading you right, (remember, not allowed access to link), you're doing a rasqueado exercise - yes, these do help the under worked extensors - and I think ultimately have a place for muscle development. But I find that scale speed comes from a good alternation and specific consideration of joint movement, mentioned above.

The concepts of alternation and sympathetic motion are very simple - easy to apply, and more importantly form a base foundation. I spend most of my technique time further developing these skills, and not much in exercises outside of scales and arpeggios.

The only concern I hear from my students is about left hand exercises. But by the time they can do their Segovia scales, without a pause, at 80-120 bpm the left hand is taken care of as well. This achieves muscle strength, shifting and coordination, syncronization of the hands, or timing.

I hate to say this but I'm probably going dark for a few days - I'm doing a workshop out here in Portland, Oregon from April 19th-23rd - dealing with these same issues! I'm fortunate to have both my local and E-Learning students, (California, Massachusetts, Alabama and Maryland as well as all over Oregon), in attendance, meeting for the first time. You can see this event listed on my website under Classical Guitar Immersion. I just ran into my Maryland guy in the gym and their already talking about next year!. They seem to be having too much fun - time to go crack-the-whip! Funny thing is, the harder I push them, the more they seem to like the work!

I've really enjoyed this discussion - I'm very motivated to hear from others like Sanf1 and many others on this board who are obviously bright and dedicated guitarists!!
Classical Guitarist Scott Kritzer

User avatar
Sanft
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 9:01 pm
Location: Somewhere over the... ah, forget it: Germany

Post by Sanft » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:01 pm

Scott_Kritzer wrote:...I tend to keep my approach simple, (minded?)...
Right attitude! I also favour the “kiss”-principle! Making music on your guitar is difficult enough so I like to keep the road as clear of obstacles as possible!
Scott_Kritzer wrote:If I'm reading you right, (remember, not allowed access to link), you're doing a rasqueado exercise - yes, these do help the under worked extensors - and I think ultimately have a place for muscle development. But I find that scale speed comes from a good alternation and specific consideration of joint movement, mentioned above.
Right again. As I said I use these rasgueado-exercises EXLUSIVELY to train extension. But you don't need to work too hard on extension because when playing there's no string-resistance to overcome. Alternation needs seperate, different exercises but it helps a lot if your extensors are in good shape (mine are)! What in my view is most important when playing scales and the like with alternating i/m is the coordination between rh and lh. I have special exercises to train that.
Scott_Kritzer wrote:The concepts of alternation and sympathetic motion are very simple - easy to apply, and more importantly form a base foundation.
My man! Again the "kiss"-principle!
Scott_Kritzer wrote:I spend most of my technique time further developing these skills, and not much in exercises outside of scales and arpeggios.
Neither do I. However, I practise scales as well as arpeggios with quite a wide range of rhythmic varieties. A simple dotted rhythm changes everything!
Scott_Kritzer wrote:The only concern I hear from my students is about left hand exercises. But by the time they can do their Segovia scales, without a pause, at 80-120 bpm the left hand is taken care of as well. This achieves muscle strength, shifting and coordination, syncronization of the hands, or timing.
My "kiss" for the left hand: Trills with all fingers on all strings; ONE scale pattern and Pujol's exercises for position changing; basic chords in "exotic" keys and pieces like Rung's "Choräle" plus Pujol's spider. That's it.
The rest I "pull out of pieces I play" just like you. With "Nocturnal" and Giuliani's op 30 there's not much left. In my view Segovia puts way too much stress on position changes on one string. I just don't play that way. I use empty strings and try to reduce direct shiftings whenever possible. The coordination and syncronization you mentioned is much more important!
Scott_Kritzer wrote:I've really enjoyed this discussion
Likewise! It's always great because explaining them forces you to rethink your positions and opinions (and stuff you simply got used to :oops: ). That's healthy! So let's continue when you're back!

Clemens … el niño que soñó la musica :fume:
"...si nos quedáramos cuarenta y ocho horas seguidas sin música, habria una catástrofe mundial." Leo Brouwer
7stringed Matthias Dammann 1997; 9stringed Neuner&Hornsteiner ~ 1880
7stringed 1829 Staufer/Legnani replica by F. P. Dietrich 2007

leeman

Post by leeman » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:02 pm

Christopher Berg wrote Giuliani Revisited which is a collection of arpeggio studies based around Giuliani's model. However, he adds new patterns to supplement the old ones. Some of the patterns are taken from more contemporary pieces - Villa Lobos, Rodrigo.

Good resource.

Leeman

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”