Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

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Neil Patrick
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Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by Neil Patrick » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:27 am

Hi there, so I've fallen in love with this piece and just started to learn it. And I got stuck right at the beginning of the piece :(
It starts p, a, m, i (p). And I feel very difficult to pluck the 4th and 3rd string at the same time by using P and I (Thumb and Index fingers). The gap is too small I guess? But I've seen other players doing just fine.
I was going to use the I, M instead but I think its not the right technique. Anyone familiar with this piece please help me :). Thank you.

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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by khayes » Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:57 pm

My first thought is that maybe your thumb needs to be slightly forward of your index finger.
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lagartija
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by lagartija » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:43 pm

That p i combination is what my teacher gave me, and I think it gives a very good balance to the sound, which happens to be accented on my score. Perhaps you need to assess your hand position if it is a problem. :-?
Is it the synchronicity that is a problem for you? If it is that i gets in the way of p then as was mentioned, perhaps your thumb needs to be further forward of your i to have the right balance.
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oski79
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by oski79 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:57 pm

Yes, p and i. The bass notes need to be all be played with p for consistent tone.
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guitareleven
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by guitareleven » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:09 pm

As already suggested, first ensure that there is no technical factor of hand configuration leading to the thumb and index trying to inhabit the same space when operating simultaneously in close proximity.

But I think it more likely that your difficulty is more in physically internalizing the rhythmic syncopation, in which the thumb action is displaced from the second beat, rather than the simultaneous action.

Try playing extracting what the thumb does and playing it alone, without the fingers (holding the chord or not, as you please) -- fifth string, then fourth string twice, then repeat -- while counting the sixteenths (slow it down for this if you have to), the thumb playing with the underlined numerals in what follows:

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ; 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 etc.

If that is difficult at first, you could try approaching this rhythmic profile by building up to it. First play something more four-square and regular, the thumb on each beat, with the second beat evenly divided:

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ; 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 etc.


Then add the thumb action on the fourth subdivision of the first beat.

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ; 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 etc.

This means the thumb will have to play quickly in succession, as it will be playing two sixteenths in a row, so, slow the tempo down even more for this if you have to. But, the feeling will be that the fourth sixteenth note is like a "pick-up" to the first sixteenth of the second beat. You will still have thumb action on each beat to lend a comprehensible definition to the rhythm within which you can stay oriented.

The next step is to eliminate the action that comes right on the second beat, but you're still aware of the second beat -- and the result is the thumb action as first diagrammed:

1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 ; 1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4 etc.


After that, try playing the beginning of the piece as written, except with the index finger eliminated:

p-a-m-p a-m-p-a ; p-a-m-p a-m-p-a ; then with the index and simultaneity re-introduced :

p-a-m-ip a-m-ip-a ; p-a-m-ip a-m-ip-a

As an intermediary step, you might try playing the above with the thumb action removed, except for the first beat, accenting the rhythm:.

p-a-m-i a-m-i-a

dave_r

Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by dave_r » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:18 pm

I am also having trouble with this piece, only in a different place. That F chord in measure eight, 8th position, is killing me. I can't seem to get my left hand 2, 3, and 4 fingers squeezed into the tenth fret, at least not at tempo. I've tried over and under arching the left hand, switching 2,3 and 4 around, and even a double barre, which is tough with the open 1st string. Maybe my fingers are just too fat. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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Aucaman
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by Aucaman » Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:43 am

Fist of all, in this milonga you don't have to stick religiously to the tempo. In fact very few people in Argentina play Milongas exactly as they are written on the score. Rubato is almost a must, if you want to get that "Je ne sais quoi" which makes it the real thing.

In that particular bar you're referring to, I tend to place fingers as I need them and not all at the same time.
I play the bass F with finger 1 and use a bit of rubato to give myself a bit more time to place finger 4 on the second string. You do just that first and play E on first string and the A on second string with finger 4.
Once you can do that comfortably, use that finger 4 as a sort of pivot (while that A is still ringing) to place finger 3 and 2 to get the C and F on third and forth strings.
That works for me, anyway.
Good luck
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guitareleven
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by guitareleven » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:58 am

dave_r wrote: ...That F chord in measure eight, 8th position, is killing me....I've tried ...switching 2,3 and 4 around...
Just to clarify -- do you mean attempts at multiple reconfigurations with 2-3-4, or just one experiment with reversing the entire set? 'Cuz if you were to find any solution to your problem with the above sort of approach, the one that seems most feasible to me would be to leave the 4th finger as it would be in the straightforward fingering, on the second string A, but to switch around the 2nd and 3rd fingers, i.e., a switch that does not include 4. The advantage is that it is easy to move into the 1-3-4 on the fifth, fourth, and second strings to form the root-fifth-third triad, because that fits into the contiguous frets of the position with no stretching or reaching. So, once the tips of those fingers are ensconced, one can press against the configuration in order to reach the 2nd finger through in a reverse fingering with 3, to get the third string F, placing it just in time for the third sixteenth note. But I suppose that is obvious enough so that that was included in what you said you had tried.

You could give the following a shot- personally, I find this more trouble to go to, yet it is still a feasible fingering, and I can make it work well. Maybe for some weird reason you will find it an improvement. Instead of getting an F on the fifth string, go for the thirteenth fret of the sixth string. Then, for the C-F-A of the upper triad on the fourth, third, and second strings, do an internal bar with the tip of the first finger, leaving the first string clear. Either the 3rd or 4th finger is workable for the sixth string F ; I find I prefer the reach with the 3rd.

Here's one more idea if you don't like the above (which will be no surprise). Get the fifth string F with your 4th finger. The E is still the open string. Get the high A as a VII fret harmonic on the fourth string with your 3rd finger. The high F and the C are then obtained with the 2nd and 1st fingers on the second and third strings. In order to get the harmonic, with the tip of the 3rd finger precisely placed right over the fret, I find it best not to have 1 and 2 in place until after the harmonic has been sounded, after which the 3rd finger can move away. Then, when you need the harmonic again, let go with 2 and 1, then follow the same procedure. This is a bit of a juggling act, and you do have to reorder the right hand fingering, but at least it's all within the scope of one position with no real stretches or crowding involved.

If none of the above satisfies, then try tuning your third string up to G#. This enables you to form the four-note F chord as you would an F major-seventh chord, with the 2nd finger one fret behind the 3rd and 4th fingers instead of crowding them all in to one fret space, so it all fits in one position, with absolutely no stretching, and no crowding. Of course, I haven't made any exploration to factor in what intractabilities may thereby be introduced into all the rest of the measures in this piece, which are likely to be numerous.

Sorry, but that's all I got.

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Charles Mokotoff
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by Charles Mokotoff » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:57 am

dave_r wrote:I am also having trouble with this piece, only in a different place. That F chord in measure eight, 8th position, is killing me. I can't seem to get my left hand 2, 3, and 4 fingers squeezed into the tenth fret, at least not at tempo. I've tried over and under arching the left hand, switching 2,3 and 4 around, and even a double barre, which is tough with the open 1st string. Maybe my fingers are just too fat. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dave
I have been playing this piece for years, and my fingers are fairly slim, but that spot also has bugged me. I basically just scrunch up and its been a while since I have had a problem. However, its a strong argument for considering a guitar with a longer string length (and I just happen to have one for sale on the forum at the moment). But this comment is in no way an attempt to market that instrument...errr...well, not really! :)
2017 Glenn Canin Spruce

dave_r

Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by dave_r » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:01 pm

Thanks for all the great and creative suggestions on the evil F chord! I'll be trying them out more in the next few weeks.

mfarias
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by mfarias » Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:36 am

About the evil F chord, I am experimenting right now (almost 4 years after the original post), and I've found that not only arching the left hand but also moving the left shoulder forward, pressing it against the heel seems to help. It may look like you're trying to exhibit your strong biceps to the audience though. :lol:

Yet another suggestion: place finger 4 and 2 first, and then finger 3 in front of finger 2, like a triangle pointing forward.
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SteveL123
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by SteveL123 » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:17 am

If your finger tips are too fat for that F chord on your guitar, just F it and buy one with wider string spacing. Here's a Ramirez 1A with a 54 mm nut https://classicalguitardelcamp.com/view ... 40f4345fcb

mfarias
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Re: Need instruction fingering Milonga by Jorge Cardoso!!

Post by mfarias » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:18 pm

Update: It seems that using finger for 4 as pivot and sliding it on the 2nd string from G to A makes it a lot easier.
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