Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

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emeraldvalley
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Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by emeraldvalley » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:25 am

I recently posted an inquiry as to music of either bream or presti version of Serenata Espanole (malats) before i start to learn it
One response was that Fortea version was most faithful to original composer’s score which was either for solo piano or sextet
And more in keeping w what Bream did at end w the triplets
However in reviewing the original piano score ans listening to the historical recording by composer on piano,and more recent piano performances , the second measure should bass notes on beats respectively 1, 2,3 should be low b, up to f then down to 6th st low e And the sixteenth notes before the eight notes (2nd beat) shoudl be minor thirds. D on top b underneath, followed by c, a, then back to the d,b Not. D, C#, D on top. The 2nd beat 2nd measure is f (tritone above the b preceding
Possibly because its unplayable to do the 2nd measure with these thirds which are uniform ( no single note is every on top
Conversely the ist measure should be e,c (correct to half tone down major third d# and b together
Though we are used to the gtr version, i question the integrity of transcribing a composer’s score with altered notes, its anothwr matter to adjust octaves and omit full harmonies , which are often necessary for limitation of guitar position range

Please let me know if i am correct or not, i agree that the guitar version sounds appropriate, but when playing this piece on gtr for a pianist who knows the score, its does not seem appropriate?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:22 am

emeraldvalley wrote:Though we are used to the gtr version, i question the integrity of transcribing a composer’s score with altered notes, its anothwr matter to adjust octaves and omit full harmonies , which are often necessary for limitation of guitar position range
A piece like this cannot really be "transcribed" for guitar due to the instrument's limitations - instead it has to be arranged. We rely on the skill of the editor to produce a work which is true to the original spirit and artistic intent of the author whilst exploiting the idiomatic possibilities of the guitar ... and there we face an inevitable dichotomy - literal replication versus artistic expression - the conciliation of which often involves several, even many, changes from the original.

Where does one draw the line? There are probably as many answers as there are editors. Even something as simple as a change of key or octave can have a significant effect on the character of a work (think of the Bach cello suites for instance).

The bottom line is - if you are uncomfortable with certain elements of an existing arrangement you are at liberty to change them yourself - I have done so in certain places in the "Serenata" - it satisfies my desire to get closer to the original, audiences enjoy it (I believe) and no one has ever commented negatively on the differences. I surmise that 95% of them have never even heard the piano version and that most never will.

On one occasion David Russell heard my arrangement - he spotted the changes (as you would expect) and afterwards quizzed me about them. Whilst fully recognising my reasoning he said that he preferred to stick with the Tárrega version that everyone knows, even though it deviates significantly from Malats published score. Why? Well, I'm paraphrasing as it was a while ago but basically, when he plays it, he's representing the art of Tárrega at least as much as Malats, with all the attendant guitaristic mannerisms of the period.

So we make choices. If I am presenting a concert of mostly piano transcriptions: Albéniz, Astort, Granados, Malats etc. I will attempt (as far as the guitar will allow) to remain true to the intentions of those composers. If, on the other hand, the repertoire includes a number of Tárrega's works I will probably defer to his arrangement of the Malats in the manner of Mr. Russell (and many others of course).
emeraldvalley wrote:Please let me know if i am correct or not, i agree that the guitar version sounds appropriate, but when playing this piece on gtr for a pianist who knows the score, its does not seem appropriate?
I believe that it's a mistake to try and out-think your audience - be true to your own interpretation and play with conviction and integrity. By all means introduce a work as an arrangement but don't fall into making even a slight apology for what can't be replicated - instead focus on how the guitar can enhance interpretation through such devices as timbral variation, idiomatic articulations like ligado and glissandi, vibrato etc., etc.

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emeraldvalley
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by emeraldvalley » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:00 pm

I see your point very well articulated. I supposed its de minimis to dwell on a few notes changed in a passage that sounds equally well,and would not be recognized by even pianists who rarely play the play. The spirit of the arrangement works , and this composer was not in the same league as Albeniz or Defalla, this piece is quasi popular in nature not a sonata or theme and variations. I really dont think many if any guitarists noticed this, as it is firmly in a gtr not piano repertoire , e.g Leyenda which sounds better on guitar with the open strings and guitar techniques not possible on piano

I dont think one should alter certain composers in substituting new notes , but this type of piece is different And based on the response to my post, other guitarists either dont care that we have to be absolute to composer’s intended notes. Does the first piece in the malat suite cubana dance lend itself to guitar. I am looking for repertoire which i can transcribe or actually arrange as you point out, that can be idiomatic to the guitar. I particularly dislike guitarists doing chopin or ravel , who were extremely meticuluous and the guitar can fully produce the range nor intentions of the compose.
I recently made my own arrangment of Millers dance de falla. Which is was able to use cross string trills and keep the correct ostinata bass pattern below it without octave shift. If you want i can send it . Also did a new arrangement of tristeroso the piano piece by villa lobos which fits the gtr range very well, though a lot of position shifts. Etc. i will send you a vid of,this. Its a beautiful piece, with unique harmonic changes Villa lobos at age 21 still formulating his style. Thanks for your comments

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:12 pm

emeraldvalley wrote:I recently made my own arrangment of Millers dance de falla. Which is was able to use cross string trills and keep the correct ostinata bass pattern below it without octave shift. If you want i can send it
Yes please EV, I'm always interested to hear new arrangements and your approach sounds ambitious. Did you work from the orchestral score?
emeraldvalley wrote:e.g Leyenda which sounds better on guitar with the open strings and guitar techniques not possible on piano
I would describe it as different rather than better. I am probably biased as I first learned to play Albéniz, Granados et al at the piano - with one or two exceptions I only play these pieces on guitar for the enjoyment of others - not myself as I always hear everything that's missing. The Prelude (Leyenda) in particular is a curious beast - clearly inspired by the sound of the guitar but impossible to play correctly in transcription. Some notes have to be changed. Have you tried making your own version?

I agree regarding Chopin - it is rare to hear a guitarist that understands this music - my favourite interpretations have been by the Kupinskis. Here they are playing Op.17 no 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxDAHM5Gyh0

Unfortunately the recording is not to my taste - a booming sound that flattens most of the dynamic range and colour - however they are magnificent in person should you get the opportunity to see them. There's another version of the mazurka at GSI - the recording is possibly more realistic but the guitars are not so good.

Kevin Cowen

Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Kevin Cowen » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:40 pm

I guess it boils down to whether you regard music as a science which must be strictly adhered
to or simply enjoyed.
I'm firmly with the latter.

Rasputin
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Rasputin » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:57 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:12 pm
I agree regarding Chopin - it is rare to hear a guitarist that understands this music - my favourite interpretations have been by the Kupinskis. Here they are playing Op.17 no 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxDAHM5Gyh0
Perhaps it's a lazy question to ask, but are there any good books out there with piano pieces arranged for two guitars?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:19 pm

Rasputin wrote:Perhaps it's a lazy question to ask, but are there any good books out there with piano pieces arranged for two guitars?
Look at the Nottingham Spanish Guitar Centre's website (Guitarnotes) - there are dozens of volumes for two guitars there - Albéniz, Bach, Bartok, Beethoven, Berio, Byrd, Chopin, Couperin, Debussy etc., etc.

It's difficult to say if they are "good" as it will come down to your personal feelings about the music and the way that the parts are distributed. I almost always find elements to change whereas the chap that I play with most frequently is happy to leave things as they are.

Rasputin
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Re: Wrong notes m 2 Malats serenata all gtr versions

Post by Rasputin » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:48 pm

Thanks Mark

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