I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:06 pm

robin loops wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:07 am
Maybe something like the straps Mariachi players use would help (the ones with the hook for the sound hole). .... which even if it is structurally okay, might dampen the sound...
I just spent 15 minutes looking online, I had no idea those types existed. I'm pretty sure that that would interfere with the bridge and yeah, I agree with you, the soundboard probably isn't made for that stress, mechanically and acoustically.
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

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robin loops
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robin loops » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:03 pm

Yeah, I figured it was a dead end but thought I'd throw it out there anyway. Another idea could be to use the suction cups from a guitar support. Not necessarily to attach the strap but rather to work as a stop so it stays in the position you want. So still wrap around guitar but add suction cups to position.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:51 pm

Just to open my old thread...

Back pain started a few days ago, getting progressively worse. It isn't horrid but it is a wake up call. I think what is happening is that now that I'm about 6 months into playing, just ending the D01 lessons here, that some of my lazy habits are starting to go away. In particular, I find that I now need to arch the fingers of my right hand, just like when I played cello. Sure, you're supposed to do that all the time but when you are playing baby pieces it doesn't matter.

And when doing this, my right hand is hitting the back of my chair so I'm slightly twisting my back to counteract that.

This is bad.

I'm going to take a few days off, I'm treating my back with Advil and Chardonnay and I think I have a solution, one that doesn't involve any devices at all. I don't know why I didn't think of this. I can cross my legs and support the body of the guitar with my calves. I need to sit forward on the seat to do this and my left arm won't hit the back of the chair.

This means I'm holding the guitar very much lower than before. I used to be able touch my ear with my index finger, now that's below my chin. I'll try this for a bit and see what happens. If not, I might get an aluminum rod at Home Depot and put it into my Murata and see how that goes, using it as a cello endpin connecting the guitar to the floor. This would actually solve another problem I've recently encounter, I need to lean the guitar against my chest, so there is so much free movement that playing is difficult.

I'll keep you updated.
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:44 am

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, my advice would be not to assume because you played the cello upright that therefore playing the guitar that way would be easier. I recommend you abort this project and learn to play the guitar in the traditional position.
I do not think that is necessary. I have tried the vertical position. It makes fretting with the left hand easier (the angles are better) and it increases the angle of attack on the right hand, limiting your options to use an oblique stroke. Judging from Paul Galbraith's playing, that is not an obstacle in obtaining beautiful tone from the guitar. Vertical position also reduces torsion stresses on the lumbar vertebrae, because you can sit with both feet flat on the floor (much better for the spine and lower back). I am currently unable to play at all because of tenosynovitis stenosis; I believe that if I had been playing vertically, this might not have happened. I hope to be able to play again in a month or so. The reason I have not adopted the vertical position, other than for experimenting, is that I have not discovered a suitable way to support the guitar. The guitar shape is slightly different from the baroque cello, and in you hold your guitar between your thighs, it will be too low to play.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

Luis_Br
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Luis_Br » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am

Your guitar is too low and this is difficult to get good angle and sound with RH. Check Galbraith video and how his guitar is upper. You shouldn't see above around 7th fret.
I am out now, when I get back home I will post some pictures how I get Galbraith style position with a support at the back of the guitar. The strap is a nice idea, but you need to work better the guitar positioning. Ask someone to help you and hold the guitar in the best positioning to you. Then you find a way too use some accessory too keep that position. Adapting yourself to the guitar and accessory is the wrong way, you should work the opposite.
My last teacher developed a way to get Galbraiths posture with an accessory. He tried that posture when playing with Galbraith in BGQ for more than 10 years, and he liked it and decided to adopt it. He also plays like that in a regular 6-string guitar. He uses the 8-string guitar more in the quartet, for wider range.
Here he plays in that posture with an ergoplay on the back of the guitar:

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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robert e » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am

Here he plays in that posture with an ergoplay on the back of the guitar:
Clever, simple, and it looks quite stable! Wonderful performance, too. I'm curious about those 8 string guitars.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:01 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am
Your guitar is too low and this is difficult to get good angle and sound with RH. Check Galbraith video and how his guitar is upper. You shouldn't see above around 7th fret.
I originally was watching this video.



That's where I notice one huge difference. The body of his guitar is not parallel to his body, treble strings are further away. I tried this and it really works, you get far less curve in your right arm, wrist and hand. And in my case, a far more comfortable back.

But the 7th fret? I just tried that, that's way high! I'm still a beginner at guitar and, well, I do need to look sometimes!

I also notice how slanted the body of the guitar is. I'm not able to do that without a cello pin. Any sorts of straps mean the body is too far away for the strap to support and therefore very floppy, which is bad.

Luis_Br wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am

I am out now, when I get back home I will post some pictures how I get Galbraith style position with a support at the back of the guitar.
Thank you, I'm looking forward to that. I just tried to envision how it works and I can almost see it in my mind.
Luis_Br wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am
The strap is a nice idea, but you need to work better the guitar positioning. Ask someone to help you and hold the guitar in the best positioning to you. Then you find a way too use some accessory too keep that position. Adapting yourself to the guitar and accessory is the wrong way, you should work the opposite.
My last teacher developed a way to get Galbraiths posture with an accessory. He tried that posture when playing with Galbraith in BGQ for more than 10 years, and he liked it and decided to adopt it. He also plays like that in a regular 6-string guitar. He uses the 8-string guitar more in the quartet, for wider range.
Here he plays in that posture with an ergoplay on the back of the guitar:
I've seen that video before! Its so cool that that's your teacher. Notice how he isn't locked down by his device, such freedom of movement!
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Luis_Br » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:31 pm

Paul Cezanne wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:01 pm
But the 7th fret? I just tried that, that's way high! I'm still a beginner at guitar and, well, I do need to look sometimes!
You said you studied the Cello before. Did you need to look at the Cello arm?

Luis_Br
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Luis_Br » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm

robert e wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm
Luis_Br wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:01 am

Here he plays in that posture with an ergoplay on the back of the guitar:
I'm curious about those 8 string guitars.
They are a more or less the same as Galbraith's Rubio 8 string, made by Martin Woodhouse, who was a Rubio's assistant and followed the construction.
I am not a huge fan of the sound of this 8-string. I think the higher treble lacks better singing, among other problems. But they are nice to extend the trasncription possibilities and fit well for the quartet. Everton now has another one made by Brazilian luthier Samuel Carvalho, which sound much better IMO, but I still prefer the regular 6-string.

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Frousse
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Frousse » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:22 pm

Julian Ward wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:24 pm
[media]

Don't knock it until you have seen it! Paul Galbraith is a fantastic player!
Absolutely stunning! This video puts to rest any reservation I had about the upright way of holding and playing the guitar. If one chooses this method and gets these kinds of results, who am I to argue against it?
Thanks for sharing.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:37 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:31 pm
Paul Cezanne wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:01 pm
But the 7th fret? I just tried that, that's way high! I'm still a beginner at guitar and, well, I do need to look sometimes!
You said you studied the Cello before. Did you need to look at the Cello arm?
For the first year or more, yes. :- (

I find I can hit almost all single notes in the 1st, 2nd and sometimes 3rd positions without error, but hitting more than one is error prone. I'm working on it. I've not yet been playing for 8 months.
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

robert e
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robert e » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:50 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:38 pm
robert e wrote:
Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:21 pm
I'm curious about those 8 string guitars.
They are a more or less the same as Galbraith's Rubio 8 string, made by Martin Woodhouse, who was a Rubio's assistant and followed the construction.
I am not a huge fan of the sound of this 8-string. I think the higher treble lacks better singing, among other problems. But they are nice to extend the trasncription possibilities and fit well for the quartet. Everton now has another one made by Brazilian luthier Samuel Carvalho, which sound much better IMO, but I still prefer the regular 6-string.
Thanks for the information, Luis. I was especially intrigued by the tailpiece, but a visit to Martin Woodhouse's web site shows he abandoned that strategy early on. He has a page and a gallery devoted to these "Brahms guitars" and it's interesting to see how his design evolved over time since the Rubio model. And by the way kudos to him for committing to sustainable woods (for all his guitars).

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:52 pm

My Ergo Play arrived today. It isn't perfect on the back but I think I can make it work. I'm thinking of putting a bend in it so it is perpendicular to my leg.

The cool thing is, it is easier to setup if I make it higher, just like you said. And then I can't see, but, that means it will make me a better player.

BTW, if you are in the US, Amazon has FREE RETURNS on Ergo Plays now so you can just try it out!
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

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