I'm sure people more knowledgable than I am will chime in. But, my opinion is that this sitting position doesn't give the guitar the support it needs for classical, nor does it encourage proper hand technique. Take a look at your right wrist in this video, its all bent around and this may eventually cause you some issues. But, most importantly, this position doesn't lend itself to good playing because you are constantly supporting the guitar with your left hand and will be unable to move around the fretboard properly to play. Another thing in the video is that your left wrist gets all twisted around and on an angle when you are trying to fret. You don't want to bend your wrist too much while you play, as it will cause all sorts of pains.m1xalis wrote:Hi,
I'm used to playing in the above-mentioned position and still actually trying to figure out the most suitable posture for comfortable playing. I'm experiencing pain in the left hand wrist and antibrachial muscles (the part of the arm below the elbow- on the inside of the arm). It gets worse when trying to play barre chords, especially 5th fret and upwards and I seem to be moving the hand with a left angle on the frets and the elbow being positioned more to the inside of the body (which is not technically correct as I understand).
I know this is a subject that has been thoroughly talked about and I've checked previous threads here, as well as video tutorials etc. Part of the problem could be caused by the guitar itself since it is need of repair (the nut is higher than it should be, wrong angle of the neck, and higher frets than are supposed to be put on a classical guitar - due to be repaired again after summer is over).
It's probably easier to comment on a recent video than getting into technical details without any image/video. Any other suggestions on technique/interpetation are welcome as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziF5oLXUhXY
Thanks,
Michalis
I thought your right hand/wrist/ elbow looked the more awkward. It looked like you were mainly keeping the guitar steady with with it , but caused extra tension for the fingers? I would think that you might get shoulder ache after playing for a while. Does this ring true?m1xalis wrote:.... experiencing pain in the left hand wrist and antibrachial muscles (the part of the arm below the elbow- on the inside of the arm). .....
(the nut is higher than it should be,.....
Yes, this is true, I think I do tend to do that, maybe some extra tension for the fingers but never any kind of shoulder ache on the right side.Tonyyyyy wrote:I thought your right hand/wrist/ elbow looked the more awkward. It looked like you were mainly keeping the guitar steady with with it , but caused extra tension for the fingers? I would think that you might get shoulder ache after playing for a while. Does this ring true?
I know and have done so in the past months following a bad repair but now the plan is to leave it as is through the summer and take it again for repair in September.You could lower the nut and saddle yourself if its a bit high. Not difficult to do .
When I first started playing I would play like this, but through the years the position changed - playing sitting down sometimes didn't help either of course. But what about flamenco guitarists? I mean they have to face all these problems while playing right? Especially the wrist bending I suppose?But some experimenting with changes in position would be the biggest help if you suffer pain. For me keeping the head of the guitar fairly high (meaning a 45% fretboard angle) helps - if the angle is close to parallel with the floor, then i tend to feel a slight wrist strain after half an hour
Hi Martin,Philosopherguy wrote:
I'm sure people more knowledgable than I am will chime in. But, my opinion is that this sitting position doesn't give the guitar the support it needs for classical, nor does it encourage proper hand technique. Take a look at your right wrist in this video, its all bent around and this may eventually cause you some issues. But, most importantly, this position doesn't lend itself to good playing because you are constantly supporting the guitar with your left hand and will be unable to move around the fretboard properly to play. Another thing in the video is that your left wrist gets all twisted around and on an angle when you are trying to fret. You don't want to bend your wrist too much while you play, as it will cause all sorts of pains.
I play like this sometimes too when I'm just fooling around (a bad habit from acoustic playing), but I don't try and seriously play like this.
I would either A: get a footstool and play in regular classical position.. or B: get some sort of guitar support and play with that and your legs flat on the floor.
I'm not saying that playing in his position is impossible, its just not good and will eventually hamper your playing ability.
My advice is to get a good book or a teacher to get you started in a good position. I remember there was some guitar books that said playing in this position was ok. I think they are wrong.
I think you should watch the first few minutes of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLccwti1cnE
Good luck!
Martin
I'm not sure what problems you are referring to but positioning is always a question of compromise between left and right hand and your position is not a good starting point, nor is it quite there if you are trying to play in the typical modern flamenco position.m1xalis wrote:Philosopherguy wrote: My question is how do the flamenco players do it? I mean sure they play in a different style but they must still have to face these same problems while playing in the flamenco posture right?
Well, I'm not a flamenco player, but I assume it has something to do with the fact that they are playing rhythmic strumming patterns a lot of the time and they have just gotten used to it somehow.m1xalis wrote: Hi Martin,
the points you make are correct, bent wrist, left hand not being able to move around too freely - even though I do try not to bend the wrist as much.
The teacher is not really an option and anyway I started playing the guitar in the 'correct' classical position back in 2007 as instructed by a guitar teacher at the time. My question is how do the flamenco players do it? I mean sure they play in a different style but they must still have to face these same problems while playing in the flamenco posture right?
Your pain description is a bit too general (as far as I know "antebrachial" just refers to forearm muscles), but I'll try to point to a few things.m1xalis wrote:Hi,
I'm used to playing in the above-mentioned position and still actually trying to figure out the most suitable posture for comfortable playing. I'm experiencing pain in the left hand wrist and antibrachial muscles (the part of the arm below the elbow- on the inside of the arm). It gets worse when trying to play barre chords, especially 5th fret and upwards and I seem to be moving the hand with a left angle on the frets and the elbow being positioned more to the inside of the body (which is not technically correct as I understand).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziF5oLXUhXY
Thanks,
Michalis
Hey Martin,Philosopherguy wrote:Well, I'm not a flamenco player, but I assume it has something to do with the fact that they are playing rhythmic strumming patterns a lot of the time and they have just gotten used to it somehow.m1xalis wrote: Hi Martin,
the points you make are correct, bent wrist, left hand not being able to move around too freely - even though I do try not to bend the wrist as much.
The teacher is not really an option and anyway I started playing the guitar in the 'correct' classical position back in 2007 as instructed by a guitar teacher at the time. My question is how do the flamenco players do it? I mean sure they play in a different style but they must still have to face these same problems while playing in the flamenco posture right?
Perhaps you should ask someone who is a Flamenco player this question. Maybe PM Ramon Amira and ask him to chime in on that question or one of the more skilled flamenco players on the board and pose that question and I'm sure you might get a better answer than I could give. One thing I am positive of: I have never seen a skilled classical player use that position in any serious way. So, that must tell you something.
Did you watch the video I linked? watch the first 5 minutes!
Martin
I must say you are spot-on on most of the points you're making. I did try and improve the barre technique after reading several posts on the matter, watching videos, etc. I can manage to do a full barre without the thumb however in that case I need to counter-weight it with the right forearm resting on the guitar, like gripping it with more force to stay in place - something i seem to do anyway to an extent - as you point out as well. If I try to do a barre with gravity and force coming from the elbow, depending on the angle of the guitar, the shoulder needs to drop way down, hence the "hunched" position.Your pain description is a bit too general (as far as I know "antebrachial" just refers to forearm muscles), but I'll try to point to a few things.
First of all, don't worry too much about emulating a particular flamenco guitar position - there is really no such thing as mandated modern flamenco guitar position. Instead, focus on the "outputs/results" - use any position which allows you to develop your technique without constraints, pain-free. For example I use a flipped classical position (meaning the leg on a footstool is on the picking hand side rather than on the fretting hand side).
You seem to bend your left wrist a lot, which may be part of the problem in conjunction with likely trying to vise-grip the neck when barre-ing. Since you mention problems getting worse when barre-ing, why don't you start correcting there. Read up about using the weight of your fretting arm and its pivot point from the shoulder to configure your barres by letting gravity "hang" your right-hand fingers into the fretboard and down, rather than vise-gripping with thumb. You should be able to (learn to) sound all 6 strings of a full barre-ed chord with minimal or even no pressure from the thumb.
That said, I still think your left wrist can be more straightened out while playing.
As others noticed, you also seem to be hunched over the guitar (perhaps so you can see the fretting action) and it does seem to cause you to bend your right wrist as well. Also you seem to rest your right forearm fixed on the guitar (perhaps a consequence of the setup you are used to) - I think this further limits your mobility and may be re-enforcing the bent wrist positioning, plus I am not sure how you would do picado runs across several strings like that.
One more thing - as you play your right forearm+hand seems to bounce a bit with each string picking with each finger - almost as if the motion comes from the elbow rather than from individual fingers. If so, I wonder if this is accompanied by tightening of your forearm which would further cause you strain.