
Michael.N. wrote:
Chicken or the egg? The footstool raises the left leg higher than the plane of the hip. Pretty much every ergonomic material that I've read on the seated position has BOTH legs sloping down, with the knees lower than the hips.
Whichever way you look at it the classical footstool position is not a 'natural' position for any human being to be in for any lengthy period of time. You can say the same for a Guitar strap, ergoplay, dynarette etc. but at least these devices place the person in what is considered a more ergonomical position. They have also become very popular.
I agreeMichael.N. wrote:Sure. Of course one can play perfectly relaxed using a footstool. My point was really that the footstool places the player in a less than optimal position. Some of the more recent innovations places the player in a more ergonomic position. That in itself will lead to fewer players experiencing injuries. Of course they will not eliminate injuries entirely. It's simply that the likelihood is diminished somewhat.
Azabagic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YFgp4m-4Yc
Gorbach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxj2zz_Jmyg
Not really the finest examples to support the use of the footstool. Notice both players right leg. Both have a tendency to move it around a lot. Probably (perhaps correctly) to relieve tension. Vidovic I can't watch () without feeling intense neck ache!
Williams is one of the few who actually appears to be 'relaxed' and extremely 'correct'. Not many footstool players come even close to his demeanor.
Jeffrey.C wrote:Michael.N. wrote:
Chicken or the egg? The footstool raises the left leg higher than the plane of the hip. Pretty much every ergonomic material that I've read on the seated position has BOTH legs sloping down, with the knees lower than the hips.
Whichever way you look at it the classical footstool position is not a 'natural' position for any human being to be in for any lengthy period of time. You can say the same for a Guitar strap, ergoplay, dynarette etc. but at least these devices place the person in what is considered a more ergonomical position. They have also become very popular.
I'm well aware on the wealth of literature that says the foot-stool raises the leg so that the body isn't in an ergonomic position and well, it's true but, that doesn't mean it's a cause for injury. It's easier to screw it up and injure yourself but there is a way to sit with it properly. Look at the world's top players, Williams, Azabagic, Tamayo, Gorbach, Bianco, Perroy, Krivokapic, Vidovic -- I could go on. There's a reason why they choose to use the foot-stool and it's not because of classical dogma. Using a foot-stool, any support (or playing an instrument really) and not injuring yourself is all about balance and positioning which is something missed by many teachers who don't necessarily know how to use a foot-stool correctly and it's not really their fault given how the guitar didn't really have a solid pedagogy until recent history compared to other instruments.
As for the popularity of the ergoplay, dynarette etc. they are easier to use in a way that won't fatigue the player as quickly but at the same time, there are heaps of players who don't use it properly. There are heaps of players who manage to use the thigh-supports incorrectly just like the foot-stool.
Your opinion is not useless Andrei, we dont have to agree for it to be useful. I do agree that it is viable to play standing up, the thing is that I dont feel the same level of control over the instrument when playing standing, and I really like to sit down comfortably without tiring my feetAndreiKrylov wrote:Yes, you could play almost in any position when you are young and strong, sitting, with footstool or not, with ergoplay etc.
Yes there are some players who managed to keep their bodies well and have long careers and avoid major injuries from thousands and thousands of hours of sitting in basically not comfortable pose...
Similar to some people who could smoke and yet live to 100 years, or work with asbestos and do not develop cancer etc.
But majority of guitarists who spent thousands and thousands of hours playing in sitting position develop different problems and back pain as they aging...
For the young people the concept of aging is not something which they really understand...
when we young we feel invincible, we could do anything, our health is endless and we could challenge it any way we would like...
When there are other people ... who could come to the guitar in older age... and one of the reason (together with the love of music and sound of the guitar) that they feel that this activity is relaxing, that for the most people classical guitar is associated with sitting...
Therefore my try to convince some guitarists here, that playing in standing (free, relaxed)
position is normal for classical guitar and even more ergonomic and productive as the way to work, all my efforts to try to convince people here to try to play standing are useless and waste of my time...
Please forgive me for my point of view which came after many years of working with guitar (44 years to be precise) and do whatever you feel right for you.
Good luck with your guitar experience!
Jeffrey.C wrote:Michael.N. wrote:
Chicken or the egg? The footstool raises the left leg higher than the plane of the hip. Pretty much every ergonomic material that I've read on the seated position has BOTH legs sloping down, with the knees lower than the hips.
Whichever way you look at it the classical footstool position is not a 'natural' position for any human being to be in for any lengthy period of time. You can say the same for a Guitar strap, ergoplay, dynarette etc. but at least these devices place the person in what is considered a more ergonomical position. They have also become very popular.
I'm well aware on the wealth of literature that says the foot-stool raises the leg so that the body isn't in an ergonomic position and well, it's true but, that doesn't mean it's a cause for injury. It's easier to screw it up and injure yourself but there is a way to sit with it properly. Look at the world's top players, Williams, Azabagic, Tamayo, Gorbach, Bianco, Perroy, Krivokapic, Vidovic -- I could go on. There's a reason why they choose to use the foot-stool and it's not because of classical dogma. Using a foot-stool, any support (or playing an instrument really) and not injuring yourself is all about balance and positioning which is something missed by many teachers who don't necessarily know how to use a foot-stool correctly and it's not really their fault given how the guitar didn't really have a solid pedagogy until recent history compared to other instruments.
As for the popularity of the ergoplay, dynarette etc. they are easier to use in a way that won't fatigue the player as quickly but at the same time, there are heaps of players who don't use it properly. There are heaps of players who manage to use the thigh-supports incorrectly just like the foot-stool.
I wasn't going against your point...?AndreiKrylov wrote:Yes, you could play almost in any position when you are young and strong, sitting, with footstool or not, with ergoplay etc.
Yes there are some players who managed to keep their bodies well and have long careers and avoid major injuries from thousands and thousands of hours of sitting in basically not comfortable pose...
Similar to some people who could smoke and yet live to 100 years, or work with asbestos and do not develop cancer etc.
But majority of guitarists who spent thousands and thousands of hours playing in sitting position develop different problems and back pain as they aging...
For the young people the concept of aging is not something which they really understand...
when we young we feel invincible, we could do anything, our health is endless and we could challenge it any way we would like...
When there are other people ... who could come to the guitar in older age... and one of the reason (together with the love of music and sound of the guitar) that they feel that this activity is relaxing, that for the most people classical guitar is associated with sitting...
Therefore my try to convince some guitarists here, that playing in standing (free, relaxed)
position is normal for classical guitar and even more ergonomic and productive as the way to work, all my efforts to try to convince people here to try to play standing are useless and waste of my time...
Please forgive me for my point of view which came after many years of working with guitar (44 years to be precise) and do whatever you feel right for you.
Good luck with your guitar experience!
I believe it is an apt analogy, in that he was trying to show that just because some people can get away with doing something bad without consequence it doesn't mean everyone can.Jeffrey.C wrote:I wasn't going against your point...?AndreiKrylov wrote:Yes, you could play almost in any position when you are young and strong, sitting, with footstool or not, with ergoplay etc.
Yes there are some players who managed to keep their bodies well and have long careers and avoid major injuries from thousands and thousands of hours of sitting in basically not comfortable pose...
Similar to some people who could smoke and yet live to 100 years, or work with asbestos and do not develop cancer etc.
But majority of guitarists who spent thousands and thousands of hours playing in sitting position develop different problems and back pain as they aging...
For the young people the concept of aging is not something which they really understand...
when we young we feel invincible, we could do anything, our health is endless and we could challenge it any way we would like...
When there are other people ... who could come to the guitar in older age... and one of the reason (together with the love of music and sound of the guitar) that they feel that this activity is relaxing, that for the most people classical guitar is associated with sitting...
Therefore my try to convince some guitarists here, that playing in standing (free, relaxed)
position is normal for classical guitar and even more ergonomic and productive as the way to work, all my efforts to try to convince people here to try to play standing are useless and waste of my time...
Please forgive me for my point of view which came after many years of working with guitar (44 years to be precise) and do whatever you feel right for you.
Good luck with your guitar experience!
As for smokers not getting cancer from smoking and people working with asbestos, that's not a very good analogy, you can't exactly be taught a good smoking position so that you don't get cancer and it's not like there's a special pose one can assume to avoid getting cancer from inhaling asbestos particles.
My point wasn't that you could play in almost any position and be fine, my point was that if you're taught how to use the foot-stool correctly, you can avoid being injured. It's not just lucky that players like Williams and all the others I've mentioned have been able to play with the foot-stool without injuring themselves like your analogy points out.
I'm not disagreeing against your ideas on standing up to play either, playing standing up isn't considered classically 'correct' but if you can find a way to play in that position without getting injured and still play well, I don't see a problem with it.
DarkHorseJ27 wrote:I believe it is an apt analogy, in that he was trying to show that just because some people can get away with doing something bad without consequence it doesn't mean everyone can.
Scott Morris wrote:Can someone here point out the correct way to use a foot stool? Never knew there was a right and wrong way to use one. It seems so simple.....
SM
Not some pretty good players use foot stool, but almost all classical guitar players use footstool or sit... I started to play with foot stool in 1968Dons wrote:I do not think that you can compare using a foot stool to smoking or working with asbestos. I learned from my teachers to play using a foot stool and have been playing since 1977 without injury. Thanks to Jeffery for pointing out that some pretty good players also use a foot stool. I thought that using a foot rest also had to do with your elbows and shoulders and your posture in general. By sitting up straight you are able to have better access to the fretboard. Of course standing would do this but old habits are hard to change. It is interesting to hear what other people have to say as I did not realize that this was an area of controversy.