Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
LFP

Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by LFP » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:17 am

Malcolm wrote: Would anyone like to add to this, or perhaps refute those comments about the health food industry?

Cheers,
Malcolm
Yes.

Many health issues are correlated to nutritional insufficencies. For example Dupuytren's contracture is often correlated to low iodine.
Low iodine also correlates to skincancer, heard that anywhere? (For DC injections do sound better than invasion I must say.)
Low Magnesium: shingles, depression, anxiety, HBP, restless legs, heavy heart beat etc. Often the issue is finding the correct "treatment".
For example Niacin (vitB3) is known to reduce LDL and triglycerides more effectively than statins.
The detail often missing is what form of niacin? Niacinamide - the others will not produce the same effect.

Another aside of the story is the "magic pill" outlook. You took x years to end up with an issue and now this pill will "mask" it in minutes.
Good nutrition takes time to properly fix the issue. For example Mg supplementation takes at least 6 months. Iodine? - much longer.

The questions to your doctor are:
How much training in nutrition did they receive?
Why is it that in animal husbandry or horticulture whenever a "health" problem is experienced the first area of investigation is nutrition yet in human health it is the last.
(That has changed a little in the last few years with blood tests etc. But much of the related advice/doctor examination is nonsense.
For example MgO and CaO the usual for Ca and Mg are both poorly absorbed.
Better forms are MgCl, Ca-citrate etc etc.)
Ever heard a doctor talking about poor protein digestion as you age?

The real answer to your doctors view is that there is few medical dollars to be made from nutritional advice. For example there is no research to prove the health benefits of Vit C.
Another example: most HBP meds have at best a 35% success rate. The result for water fasting +85% . How many doctors talk about water fasting to treat HBP?
Who talks niacin for LDL instead of statins?

Some of your doctors views are based on a poor understanding of genetics in particular the developing field of epi-genetics.
Most see genetics as THE formula (the that's aging statement) that predetermines everything.
Genetics should be seen as an enormous complex switch which, dependent on what it receives, acts in what ever way it is able. That is what epi-genetics is about.

(I cannot remember the osteo advice but if that is of interest I could track that down. One caveat here, doing these health issues is not easy, need discipline organisation and patience.)

Poor nutrition = poor result as ugly and simple as that. Most under-estimate how powerful correct nutrition is. LFP.

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by mmapag » Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:24 pm

I quite agree with LFP. Good nutrition and health habits either help or hurt over the long term and a supplement is not a quick fix but, if it's the right one for the circumstance, can certainly help over time. Truth is most physicians take very little nutrition in med school, comparatively, and are much better at prescribing than determining root causes and attacking them. Osteopaths are a step up in that they have much more nutritional training and will look to solve the root problem. Whether this would help the OP or not I would not be qualified to answer and the aging process will progress. The question is, at what pace.

So, I do not agree with the MDs blanket assessment of the "health food" industry.
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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by pogmoor » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:54 pm

People in western economies who eat a balanced mixed diet (and who moderate alcohol intake and smoking) are unlikely to suffer nutritional deficiencies. The soil in some parts of the world can be deficient in some minerals (eg iodides) but only those who exclusively eat local produce are likely to be affected.

LFP is wrong in most of what is written above. Just to take two examples:
LFP wrote:Many health issues are correlated to nutritional insufficiencies. For example Dupuytren's contracture is often correlated to low iodine.
Dupuytren's contracture is more likely to arise in people with diabetes or those who smoke and drink too much.
LFP wrote:For example there is no research to prove the health benefits of Vit C.
There is extensive research on Vitamin C, some of it arising from the campaign on behalf of mega doses pursued by the late Nobel prize wining chemist Linus Pauling. His work on the chemical bond was ground breaking, but he was quite wrong about Vitamin C, which can have adverse effects in high doses. The best way to ensure an adequate intake of Vitamin C is to eat fruit and vegetables regularly.

There is limited evidence that glucosamine (plus or minus chondroitin) and fish oils might have beneficial effects in osteoarthritis but the such evidence as there is suggests that any effects are quite small.

Incidentally I write this as someone affected by osteoarthitis in the second joint of both second fingers; this affects guitar playing surprisingly little even though some movements of my right hand are quite painful right now. I take heart from the fact that Les Paul continued playing regularly into his nineties despite quite painful arthritis in his hands
Eric from GuitarLoot
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Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by muirtan » Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:31 pm

Malcolm, I must stress that I am not medically qualified at all. I have oesteoarthritis and what I thought until last year was rheumatoid arthritis. I have a lot of help from my teacher who just seems to sense when I will have/ have problems with fingerings. He has shown me how to move my hand to reduce tension, has altered the fingerings and just taken odd notes out. this has allowed me to play pieces I never thought possible.

On the recommendation of a rheumatologist I take glucosamine. I also see an acupuncturist who has kept a lot of the swelling down in my joints. Last year I was having a very bad time with what I thought was rheumatoid arthritis but noticed that when I didn't eat wheat I improved dramatically. I am now on a gluten free diet and am almost pain free for the first time in 40 years. I still get the occasional pain from the osteo when the weather changes or my hands are in water too much but that's about all. I now think what was diagnosed as rheumatiod arthritis 40 years ago was infact a gluten sensitivity but that's just my theory.

LFP

Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by LFP » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:27 pm

Hello Pogmoor,

I concede none of your points and accept you disagree with me.
Recognising the endless nature of this debate I'll leave it as is.

Muirtan gives an example and attitude I support.

LFP.

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by pogmoor » Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:42 pm

LFP wrote:I concede none of your points and accept you disagree with me.
Recognising the endless nature of this debate I'll leave it as is.
I go where the evidence takes me :)
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:49 am

There is certainly some food for thought (no pun intended) in some of these posts. I suppose there will always be disagreement regarding what might work and what might not work. Perhaps, sometimes, it's even in the mind, but if it works, well that's OK too.

muirtan, you mentioned acupuncture; do you think that would work on a single finger joint? The specialist didn't seem to think so, but, judging by what I have read in this post, maybe he simply doesn't want to believe in alternative therapies.

Incidentally, the aforementioned specialist has treated several classical guitarists for DC, hopefully with success.

I would like to discuss another area of nutrition relating to performance anxiety, but I will start a separate thread for that. Watch for it - it's coming to a theatre near you :)

Cheers,
Malcolm
When I was ten, I thought my parents knew everything. When I became twenty, I was convinced they knew nothing. Then, at thirty, I realized I was right when I was ten.

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by muirtan » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:44 pm

Hi Malcolm, mine works on my fingers and knees but as there are several alternative acupuncture points for one one part of the body I'm not always sure what she is working on. When I just have a one joint flare she will work on that joint by inserting the needles into the joint. I have one finger, little finger on right ( isn't that lucky) which she's never been able to totally fix although it is much better, doesn't bend well but there is no pain most of the time. I was sceptical when I first went but I had bad side effects from the usual medication to control arthritis so thought I'd nothing to lose. After my first treatment my neighbour remarked on how much better I was walking and my then guitar teacher said my hands were moving much better. The effects lasted about 5 days but then I was needing weekly treatments, I'm now down to 3 monthly visits. I was told that if there was no improvement after 5 visits then it wasn't for me.

Hope this helps.

Bman

Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by Bman » Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:39 pm

As a cyclist who obviously uses his knees a WHOLE lot, I will vouch for the effectiveness of glucosamine/chondroitin for SOME joint issues. I had gotten to the point where my knees were throbbing during rides until a marathoner friend told me about this. After about 3 weeks of taking this, they've never bothered me again. This combo has been shown to provide relief from cartilage (or lack of) issues.
But, when I started having finger issues (from guitar and golf), the supplement made no difference. I had several fingers and left thumb diagnosed with "trigger finger", which is inflammation of the tendon that causes the finger joints to lock in place when bent, and had a couple of cortisone injections in each one. Right in the joint at the base of the finger. OUCH. They did little good and I ended up having 3 different surgeries over a year or so period. I'm happy to report that all 3 fingers are now totally pain-free and I can do whatever I want with them. And it's a simple procedure with very little down time. If it's inflammation in your tendon, you can stop the activity, but as soon as you start it back up you are likely to get it again.

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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by mmapag » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:50 pm

pogmoor wrote:People in western economies who eat a balanced mixed diet (and who moderate alcohol intake and smoking) are unlikely to suffer nutritional deficiencies. The soil in some parts of the world can be deficient in some minerals (eg iodides) but only those who exclusively eat local produce are likely to be affected.

LFP is wrong in most of what is written above. Just to take two examples:
LFP wrote:Many health issues are correlated to nutritional insufficiencies. For example Dupuytren's contracture is often correlated to low iodine.
Dupuytren's contracture is more likely to arise in people with diabetes or those who smoke and drink too much.
LFP wrote:For example there is no research to prove the health benefits of Vit C.
There is extensive research on Vitamin C, some of it arising from the campaign on behalf of mega doses pursued by the late Nobel prize wining chemist Linus Pauling. His work on the chemical bond was ground breaking, but he was quite wrong about Vitamin C, which can have adverse effects in high doses. The best way to ensure an adequate intake of Vitamin C is to eat fruit and vegetables regularly.

There is limited evidence that glucosamine (plus or minus chondroitin) and fish oils might have beneficial effects in osteoarthritis but the such evidence as there is suggests that any effects are quite small.

Incidentally I write this as someone affected by osteoarthitis in the second joint of both second fingers; this affects guitar playing surprisingly little even though some movements of my right hand are quite painful right now. I take heart from the fact that Les Paul continued playing regularly into his nineties despite quite painful arthritis in his hands

With respect, while some of your statements may be true or partially true, that does not invalidate potential benefits of good nutrition and supplementation as strategies to minimize or prevent illnesses and injuries.
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Re: Sore Finger Joint and a Doctor's Opinion

Post by muirtan » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:37 pm

pogmoor wrote:People in western economies who eat a balanced mixed diet (and who moderate alcohol intake and smoking) are unlikely to suffer nutritional deficiencies.
A little late in picking up on this but according to my doctor most people in the UK have low vit D levels. Certainly enough for him to encourage me to take vit D supplements but he wasn't worried about any other vitamins.

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