Inquiry about scoring programs.

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bert

Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by bert » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:36 pm

Re. The last post (if you want to be a professional ...), can't you be a professional or won't they let you be a professional?

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 pm

bert wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:36 pm
Re. The last post (if you want to be a professional ...), can't you be a professional or won't they let you be a professional?
I think the opinion being expressed is that it does not yet yield professional results, especially with multi-instrument scores. The level of programming taken to get things just right is phenomenal, and with Dorico it has needed a full time, employed team working for many years, and it is still not fully functional, but for what it can do, it cannot be beaten, particularly with modern scores, the type needing irregular bar lengths, nested tuplets, graphics, and the ability to tweak every single detail - and with multiple parts, things line up vertically to a professional standard.
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cadiz
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by cadiz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:33 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 pm
the type needing irregular bar lengths, nested tuplets, graphics, and the ability to tweak every single detail - and with multiple parts, things line up vertically to a professional standard.
All these features are provided by MuseScore: I am no longer surprised by the lack of knowledge of this program, because it is necessary to practice it and to know it very well. It is the least of the things before expressing a fully admissible opinion.

bert

Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by bert » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:52 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 pm
bert wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:36 pm
Re. The last post (if you want to be a professional ...), can't you be a professional or won't they let you be a professional?
I think the opinion being expressed is that it does not yet yield professional results, especially with multi-instrument scores. The level of programming taken to get things just right is phenomenal, and with Dorico it has needed a full time, employed team working for many years, and it is still not fully functional, but for what it can do, it cannot be beaten, particularly with modern scores, the type needing irregular bar lengths, nested tuplets, graphics, and the ability to tweak every single detail - and with multiple parts, things line up vertically to a professional standard.
Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure how to interpret that piece of text.
As Cadiz says, a lot of things can be tweaked in MuseScore, but I have no idea how it compares to other programs, except for older versions of Finale and Printmusic and then it compares favourably. For my needs Musescore offers more than enough.

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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by musikai » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:13 pm

I'm using Sibelius, mainly for the reason that I bought and used it when musescore wasn't as good as it is today. I would say that MS absolutely can be used to create professional guitar scores. The scores by our forum member Marieh for example are really fine. I would say that MS is the best solution for anybody new who is in search for a notation program.
For large scores with about 100 pages it really gets slow and is no fun to use though. I have worked with a large score file of the Sagreras Lessons with no problem in Sibelius. Out of interest I tried it in MS, for every edit I had to wait 3-5 seconds which really is too slow. But this was with a large score as mentioned.
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by sxedio » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:34 pm

cadiz wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:43 am
Morever, do not forget that MuseScore is a recent score editor. Its very first version 2.0 dates back just three years, and some major features added since last year in 2017 only (with version 2.1)
Yes, and I found version 1 seriously limiting as a user, version 2 has addressed the worst limitations thankfully. But lets keep things in perspective
I don’t need fancy. Just something that works well for guitar and doesn’t break the bank account. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
Doesn't sound like the O.P is submitting scores to publishers any time soon, and if he did, he could always export the MusicXML version to be imported into the publisher's software of choice for further tweaking.
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:47 pm

cadiz wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:33 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 pm
the type needing irregular bar lengths, nested tuplets, graphics, and the ability to tweak every single detail - and with multiple parts, things line up vertically to a professional standard.
All these features are provided by MuseScore: I am no longer surprised by the lack of knowledge of this program, because it is necessary to practice it and to know it very well. It is the least of the things before expressing a fully admissible opinion.
Fair enough, I was not sure - that is why I asked some people who I trusted, one of whom I know is a fully professional engraver with a reputable company.
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prawnheed

Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by prawnheed » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:48 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 pm
bert wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:36 pm
Re. The last post (if you want to be a professional ...), can't you be a professional or won't they let you be a professional?
I think the opinion being expressed is that it does not yet yield professional results, especially with multi-instrument scores. The level of programming taken to get things just right is phenomenal, and with Dorico it has needed a full time, employed team working for many years, and it is still not fully functional, but for what it can do, it cannot be beaten, particularly with modern scores, the type needing irregular bar lengths, nested tuplets, graphics, and the ability to tweak every single detail - and with multiple parts, things line up vertically to a professional standard.
The implication that a full-time, employed team is more likely to produce a good product than a well run open source project is not really valid. There are plenty of examples of great community software - the internet would simply not run if you took away the open source contributions. There are also plenty of examples of poor commercial software.

Also, the fact that it is free (related, but not the same issue), does not mean it is less likely to work well. Again, there are lots of examples of great free software and poor expensive software.

Musescore is extremely flexible and, partly because of its upbringing, highly customisable. It is perfectly capable of professional results and with the ability to create your own styles for everything, program your own plugins, and ultimately customise the code and build your own version of the product it is in fact only limited by your own ability to use and extend it to suit your own purpose.

It may not be for everyone, but it is certainly not inherently less worthy because of its price or the way in which it is developed.

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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by cadiz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:53 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:47 pm
one of whom I know is a fully professional engraver with a reputable company.
The problem is that this engraver, or I missed something, does not practice MuseScore, at least as an expert user. So, opinion is null and void.

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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:59 pm

There is a lot of competition in this field. Steinberg employed the leading lights in the world, including Daniel Spreadbury, the most famous names in music engraving softwareto produce something that would be the trailblazer and the go-to product for professional engravers in music publishing. In addition, Dorico is learning from all of the shortcomings of Finale and Sibelius, both of which are very mature products. All of this expertise and investment has still not yielded the same functionality of either Finale or Sibelius, and that is the goal, with a possible integration with the sequencing functions of Cubase. Musescore may be worthy, but there is no way that it going to topple the status of Finale, Sibelius or now Dorico for the aforementioned reasons. I have contacted publishing companies for my books (before deciding to control my own work) and had two solo pieces published by a German publisher. They would only accept Sibelius or Finale files, and wanted my files to be as close to the finished product as possible, so an XML upload was out of the question.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:02 pm

cadiz wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:53 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:47 pm
one of whom I know is a fully professional engraver with a reputable company.
The problem is that this engraver, or I missed something, does not practice MuseScore, at least as an expert user. So, opinion is null and void.
So why do no major publishing houses use it?

(apart from the one you mentioned, that is not orchestral so has less potential for issues pertaining to alignment and other professional standards)
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by guitarrista » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:03 pm

The erroneous perception that the more expensive something is, the better it is - and its corollary, that if something is free, it must be crap - is very well ingrained in people's thinking, though. As Adrian demonstrates through his exchange, you simply are not viewed as a 'serious' engraver of you use free software. This perception does not correspond to the objective reality, but is almost all that matters nevertheless.

Now where's that $250 bottle of AMAZING wine I bought the other day.. :ivresse:

BTW Lilypond (and I am assuming, musescore) can easily do the most complex flamenco guitar notation and tablature. Good luck trying to replicate it with any of the professional engraving software like Finale or Sibelius - you will need lots of it!
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:07 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:03 pm
The erroneous perception that the more expensive something is, the better it is - and its corollary, that if something is free, it must be crap - is very well ingrained in people's thinking, though. As Adrian demonstrates through his exchange, you simply are not viewed as a 'serious' engraver of you use free software. This perception does not correspond to the objective reality, but is almost all that matters nevertheless.

Now where's that $250 bottle of AMAZING wine I bought the other day.. :ivresse:
Nobody used such extreme language. I think the conclusion for Musescore is very good, but not up there with the leading three, especially for complex orchestral scores. For guitar players it is no doubt fine, but my experience is that publishing houses only want the main two (or three). I asked the pros and they agreed.

I think that Admira guitars are very good guitars, but I wouldn't recommend them for a recital at the Wigmore Hall.
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by guitarrista » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:15 pm

Sorry didn't mean to imply it was a quote - hence the singles rather than the double quotes. Was just interpreting the general sentiment.

As to complex orchestra scores - this is probably where the professional software shines - in single-voice per staff line engraving. But this is precisely not what one needs for guitar which is typically notated as a multi-voiced instrument on a single staff.

As to your Admira guitar analogy - it does not really work (meaning it is a faulty analogy). You can't compare skilled-labour-intensive hardware to software projects. In fact it is pretty hard to find a good analogy from the non-digital world where everything is historically associated with large investments in skill and knowledge acquisition and with large investment of labour from one or a few people; not to mention the hardware/materials involved. The old rule of thumb probably works somewhat in the non-digital world historically (but see wine etc.) but just does not give you good heuristics when it is to do with large scale volunteer distributed software projects.
Last edited by guitarrista on Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Inquiry about scoring programs.

Post by cadiz » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:17 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:02 pm
So why do no major publishing houses use it?
Already answered:
cadiz wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:43 am
Morever, do not forget that MuseScore is a recent score editor. Its very first version 2.0 dates back just three years, and some major features added since last year in 2017 only (with version 2.1)
Of course, faced with publishers "heavyweight" (Finale, Sibelius) who have been on the spot for twenty or thirty years, I do not know exactly, we must allow time for MuseScore to settle in the landscape of the music publishing houses.

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