Der Jung tuners are actually good

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
User avatar
keithwwk
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:12 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by keithwwk » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:49 am

The shown Der Jung tuners sell
Can you provide more info on construction of the Teflon bearings? Is it what they call the FFS = Friction Free System? Or is that the one with the ball bearing? Thanks!
FFS is ball bearing friction free system. The roller made of metal.
Antonio Picado Model 60 Spruce 2017
Esteve Mod 1.4ST Spruce 2003
Ryoji Matsuoka M20 Cedar 1978
M.Sakurai No.5 Cedar 1976
Yamaha G225

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by rojarosguitar » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 am

I had ordered DER JUNG DJ306GX-P12/S4 with ball bearings two weeks ago.

The quality was not convincing; they had rivets that were not flash with the plates, the diameter of the ball bearings was too small, so that with time the roller would have touched the wood as well, and they were turning unevenly. The rollers were not all perpendicular to the plates.

I have sent them back.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 7230
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by Michael.N. » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:47 am

Really should be ESSLFS - which means Ever SO Slightly Less Friction System.
Historicalguitars.

User avatar
Rick Beauregard
Student tutor
Posts: 1390
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:23 am
Location: Blaine, WA

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by Rick Beauregard » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:19 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 am
I had ordered DER JUNG DJ306GX-P12/S4 with ball bearings two weeks ago.

The quality was not convincing; they had rivets that were not flash with the plates, the diameter of the ball bearings was too small, so that with time the roller would have touched the wood as well, and they were turning unevenly. The rollers were not all perpendicular to the plates.

I have sent them back.
Rivets?
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

SteveL123
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by SteveL123 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:53 pm

rojarosguitar wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:29 am
I had ordered DER JUNG DJ306GX-P12/S4 with ball bearings two weeks ago.

The quality was not convincing; they had rivets that were not flash with the plates, the diameter of the ball bearings was too small, so that with time the roller would have touched the wood as well, and they were turning unevenly. The rollers were not all perpendicular to the plates.

I have sent them back.
Interesting! Per this drawing http://www.magic-guitar-parts.com/epage ... -P12/S4%22 , the ball bearing is only 0.3 mm bigger in diameter than the roller shaft. If only the ball bearing race sits on the wood, there is no problem. If the shaft extends into the wood, I can see future problems as the bearing race compresses the wood, the shaft will contact the wood unless it was perfectly aligned and tight fit when first installed.

In your earlier post you wrote:
"Got Der Jung tuners for less than 30 Euros (no ball bearings) and they work very well."

Are the no ball bearing ones better in your opinion? What kind of bearings do they employ? What is the part number?

Stephen Faulk
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 am

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by Stephen Faulk » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:46 pm

If the bearings were bigger the roller holes would have to be bigger too. That would ruin the roller holes for any future tuners.
Get Rubners, then. Der jung are good for the price, and any real upgrade bearing style tuners come in at a high price range.

Technically'in mechanical assembly those tabs are not rivets, but not everyone agrees on the non flush aspect of some models.

You also might have a slight problem with the rollers in that particular guitar.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by rojarosguitar » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:06 am

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:46 pm
If the bearings were bigger the roller holes would have to be bigger too. That would ruin the roller holes for any future tuners.
Get Rubners, then. Der jung are good for the price, and any real upgrade bearing style tuners come in at a high price range.

Technically'in mechanical assembly those tabs are not rivets, but not everyone agrees on the non flush aspect of some models.

You also might have a slight problem with the rollers in that particular guitar.
I haven't seen a guitar that doesn't haven't slightly wider holes for the rollers than the roller diameter. So the issue is how much is the difference between the roller diameter and the ball bearing diameter, so that, as in the previous post, they would not just compress the wood and let the actual rollers sit on the wood. Because then you could just take tuners without ball bearings. I have a set Der Jung Tuners without bearings, and they are much better quality and half the price of the ones I have sent back.

But of course it's true that high quality tuners with ball bearings have their price, with Rubner and Schaller Grand Tune apparently the cheapest.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

SteveL123
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by SteveL123 » Tue May 01, 2018 2:59 pm

keithwwk wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:49 am
The shown Der Jung tuners sell
Can you provide more info on construction of the Teflon bearings? Is it what they call the FFS = Friction Free System? Or is that the one with the ball bearing? Thanks!
FFS is ball bearing friction free system. The roller made of metal.
Thanks! Am I correct that there is only one ball bearing, on the end of the roller shaft?

From pics I've seen, Scheller's use 2 ball bearings on each roller shaft. One inboard at the pinion gear, and one at the end of the shaft.

Tuners from Rodgers do not use ball bearings, but use precision brass bushes, which is a type of bearing aka sleeve bearing. I think Rodger's also use Delrin washers to lower friction.

SteveL123
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by SteveL123 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:46 pm
If the bearings were bigger the roller holes would have to be bigger too. That would ruin the roller holes for any future tuners.
....................
Not if the roller shaft diameter is made smaller than the ball bearing diameter. From what I can gather so far, the standard classical tuner shaft diameter is 10 mm.

User avatar
keithwwk
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:12 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by keithwwk » Wed May 02, 2018 12:58 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 2:59 pm
keithwwk wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:49 am
The shown Der Jung tuners sell
Can you provide more info on construction of the Teflon bearings? Is it what they call the FFS = Friction Free System? Or is that the one with the ball bearing? Thanks!
FFS is ball bearing friction free system. The roller made of metal.
Thanks! Am I correct that there is only one ball bearing, on the end of the roller shaft?
You are right man. It work smoothly. You can ask seller to mix and match the parts you like. I bought a set of DJ-200GK-A2B/S4 (FFS) for my Sakurai No.5 working great and looking nice :D
Antonio Picado Model 60 Spruce 2017
Esteve Mod 1.4ST Spruce 2003
Ryoji Matsuoka M20 Cedar 1978
M.Sakurai No.5 Cedar 1976
Yamaha G225

Stephen Faulk
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 am

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed May 02, 2018 1:41 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm
Stephen Faulk wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:46 pm
If the bearings were bigger the roller holes would have to be bigger too. That would ruin the roller holes for any future tuners.
....................
Not if the roller shaft diameter is made smaller than the ball bearing diameter. From what I can gather so far, the standard classical tuner shaft diameter is 10 mm.
Taking it for granted that all products conform is what I was getting at. You hope they are 10 mm, you might be unpleasantly surprised when a fabrication run was made with another size part or a proprietary design .....it happens.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

es335
Posts: 1524
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:12 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by es335 » Wed May 02, 2018 5:00 pm

Take a look at magic-guitar-parts‘ website. They provide blueprints of all Der Jung tuning machines they are offering. The solid rollers are typically between 9.6 - 9.8 mm and the FFS rollers are 10.2 mm which should be okay with most guitars because the holes are almost always a tad wider than 10 mm. :wink:

User avatar
rojarosguitar
Posts: 4792
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:24 pm
Location: near Freiburg, Germany

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed May 02, 2018 7:58 pm

The difference didn't feel that big; rather as it almost wasn't there at all. Unfortunately I didn't take some measurements before I sent it back, but usually I'm not too bad ta estimate such things.

The ball bearings definitively fitted the holes in the guitar the tuners were meant for, maybe still with a bit of play. But I was afraid that the soft cedro gets compressed and the plastic rollers will com into contact with the wood, which would have made the ball bearings superfluous.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

Stephen Faulk
Posts: 832
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:27 am

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by Stephen Faulk » Thu May 03, 2018 12:56 am

In general, I prefer the non bearing sets of any brand tuner, but some companies bearing sets are better than others.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

SteveL123
Posts: 1044
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:05 pm

Re: Der Jung tuners are actually good

Post by SteveL123 » Fri May 04, 2018 7:47 pm

I bought a set of the DG-102G-AS-S4 tuners and they have arrived. Some initial comments:

There are no engravings, the design on the plate looks like silk screen. The set weighs 158 grams. Is that heavy? Mechanism feels precise, nothing loose that I can feel.

Here's a video of a new tuner on the left and me wiggling the shaft of my old tuner. As you can see, it's worn/ loose/ flopping around. IMO due to the sloppy/ imprecisely drilled holes in the head stock when these tuners were first installed, which allowed bending of the shaft, wearing out the bearing over time. The same will happen to the new tuners unless I find a way to install them so that the ball bearings sit tight and aligned in the head stock. The fit is loose and not concentric now. Ideas?


Return to “Luthiers”