Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:12 am

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:33 am
... <snip> therefore, I'm now posting my V2 of Sor's Opus 60 #8 for you all to listen and comment.
... <snip>
Jorge - my "comment" comes in the form of a question: why play this at such a fast tempo?

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Hi, mainterm, thank you for your "comment" :D. Good question, but I do not have a simple and convincing answer. I understand your remark and agree with it: the fact that I can play any given piece at a fast tempo does not imply that I should do it. However, this #8, as you know, does not have any indication of tempo and, in my Chanterelle edition of "The Complete Studies…", Sor himself is quoted as saying: Lessons with no tempo indication should be studied slowly, increasing speed progressively as self-confidence is gained. And that's what I did. With the help of a metronome, I slowly increased the speed and at the time I posted my first record of the #8, on March 13th, 2017, I had reached 1/4 = 145 bpm (vivacíssimo). It sounded very nice and I then moved on to the following piece, the #9. However, I kept on playing the #8, as well as all the ones before it, as part of my daily guitar practice and, therefore, after some time, I could play it faster and faster, even faster than in my record posted yesterday (1/4 = 210 bpm, prestíssimo), but my son didn't like it that way and I slowed it down.

The question, then, is, which speed one should use? The one which pleases us best? Or is there another more objective criterium? I must say I like both, my version V1 and V2 :), but there might be a way out of this dilema, as, quoting Sor again, he says the following concerning the #9: This lesson is nothing more than the development of the preceding one. So, it seems that his intention was that both pieces, the #8 and the #9, should be played at the same tempo, no? Now, I'll be posting today my V2 of the #9, which I'm playing at 1/4 = 155 bpm. If the assumption that both pieces should be played at the same tempo is reasonable, and if you think that the tempo of my #9 (V2) is OK, then I should reduce the tempo of the #8 as well to 1/4 = 155 bpm as well. Would you agree?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:30 pm

Back again to my review of past records of Sor's Opus 60 pieces and I came to my rendition of the #8, posted on March 21st, 2017. Well, this rendition was quite reasonable and, as in the #8 (V1), I might leave it like that, were not for the fact that, nowadays, I play this piece in a slightly faster (from 1/4 = 140 bpm to 1/4 = 155 bpm) and more assertive way. Thus, I'm now posting my V2 of Sor's Opus 60 #9 for you all to listen and comment.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, this time, my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #9 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #9 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 15Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
[/quote]
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:47 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:33 am
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V2).wma
Wow! what a nice rendition. Well done. I like the light touch. Should definitely not be any faster. It will lose the musical quality.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:01 pm

I made a new recording of #15. I had timing problems in the previous recording, which I hope are now resolved. My study notes on this piece:
  1. Empahsis on the melody (in the bass!) is necessary to keep the piece from falling apart. The rest is a minor accompaniment, which should be played de-emphasized.
  2. I had difficulty making the transition from playing the melody apoyando and then playing the second note of the arpeggios lightly and tirando with the same p (thumb). I tried not using using p for the second note, but that was worse.
  3. I have worked a lot on technique since the previous recording, analyzing tension and places where I missed fingerings. The result is that I can now post a recording in two or three takes, instead of 50 or 100. It helps a lot to be aware of fingering problems and the amount of rotation in the wrist. When your wrist is rotated too much or too little, you miss the note.
Sor_Op60_#15a.wma
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Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:28 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:47 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:33 am
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V2).wma
Wow! what a nice rendition. Well done. I like the light touch. Should definitely not be any faster. It will lose the musical quality.
Thank you, Yisrael, you are very kind. It seems, however, that I may be playing it too fast :(. I'm now "negotiating" with mainterm what should be the right tempo :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:26 pm
Location: Modi'in Illit, Israel

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:54 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:28 pm
It seems, however, that I may be playing it too fast
I did not want to say that, but I think that you if you slow down a little, you can emphasize the melody and the phrasing more. It is very nice as is, but I can imagine that you can be more expressive if you slow down a little.

I take back what I said. I tried slowing it down, and tried to give more expression. It does not help. You played it nicely. Leave it that way.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:11 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:01 pm
I made a new recording of #15...
Well done, Yisrael, way, way better than your rendition of last October. I hope that you are now reconciled with this little piece and that, beyond its pedagogical value, you also see some beauty in it :D.

The rhythm is now steady and so are the transitions between sections. Your tone is also good, as usual. The "minor accompaniment" (ms.9-16) - with which I struggled a lot to control - is perfect :D. However, please check the notes of m.6 and m.7, a couple of them do not sound right to me. In m.6 (an A Major chord), apparently, in the first time it is played you play the last note as an A instead of a C#, and in m.7 (a B 7th chord) it seems that the 3rd and 4th notes are swapped.

The table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 15Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:54 pm
Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:28 pm
It seems, however, that I may be playing it too fast
I did not want to say that, but I think that you if you slow down a little, you can emphasize the melody and the phrasing more. It is very nice as is, but I can imagine that you can be more expressive if you slow down a little.

I take back what I said. I tried slowing it down, and tried to give more expression. It does not help. You played it nicely. Leave it that way.
Well, too late, Yisrael... :D, I had already prepared, just a few minutes ago, a new, slower version of the #8 and I was going to post it when I noticed the addenda to your message above. Contrary to the #8 (V2) I posted two days ago and which is played at 1/4 = 210 bpm, this new #8 (V3) is played at a substantially slower pace, 1/4 = 155 bpm, the same as in its companion piece, the #9 (V2), which I posted two days ago. Just listen to it, please, and let me know which one you do prefer. I would love to have mainterm's opinion as well :D.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #8 (V3).mp3
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jess Phillips
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Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jess Phillips » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:06 pm

I much prefer the slower rendition, Jorge. Well played :-D
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:18 pm

Jess Phillips wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:06 pm
I much prefer the slower rendition, Jorge. Well played :-D
Thank you, Jess, you are very kind :D. And what about you? When will we have a rendition of the #2 :)?
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:07 pm

Continuing with my review of my past records of Sor's Opus 60 pieces, I came to my rendition of the #10, posted on April 24th, 2017, and, honestly, I didn't like it. An unsteady rhythm, too much rubato and too many notes whose values were not respected, specially in the 2nd section. The way I played the transitions between m.12 and m,13 and between m.13 and m.14, well, is not at all what is in the score. Strangely enough, I have a CD with all of the Opus 60 pieces played by Mr. Nicholas Goluses and, well, he does the same in the #10, he takes all sorts of liberties in respect of what is in the score and, quite frankly, I don't like his rendition. Thus, I'm now posting my V2 of Sor's Opus 60 #10 for you all to listen and comment. The tempo is 1/4 = 80 bpm.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, this time, my Kuniharu Nobe #8 (1972), with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #10 (V2).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #10 (V2).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 18Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:58 pm

Looking back, now, at my rendition of the #11 (V2) posted on May 8th, 2017, well, one of the two notes of the first beat of m.16, just before the harmonic, seems to be wrong. Also, the duration of the eight rests before and after the harmonic seems also wrong. Moreover, the beauty of this little piece comes to life if played slightly faster, something I wasn't able to do at the time. Thus, in this new rendition, V3, I upped the beat from 1/8 = 225 bpm then, to 280 bpm now. Please listen and comment..

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was, this time, my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #11 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #11 (V3).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 19Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

With this rendition of Sor's Opus 60 #11, I've completed the revision of my records of all the Elementary graded pieces in this Opus. From now on I'll be looking at Novice graded pieces and things will get a bit tougher. Wish me luck... :D
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:08 pm

As expected, the Novice graded pieces are more challenging. The #12 in particular, has some counterpoint measures that are quite difficult to tame, specially if one wants to play the piece at a reasonable speed and within tempo (which almost nobody does :lol:). So, I started to rehearse it and soon realized that it will take me a few days to have it ready for record :(. I procrastinated :), then, by jumping straight to the to the #13 which is more accessible.

I looked thus to my rendition of the #13 (V2) posted on June 20th, 2017, and, well, there are too many split notes and subtle changes in rhythm, specially in the second part. Also, the transitions between sections as well as between a section and its repetition are not done in tempo (is this acceptable? I've seen it everywhere...). Therefore, I prepared a new record, that shall be the #13 V3, where I try to correct these "defects". Please listen and comment.

As usual, the record was produced with the Zoom Handy Recorder app on my iPhone, the sound capture being made by an iRig microphone that connects directly to the iPhone. The guitar used was my Hermanos Camps Master No. 3 (2014), fitted with Knobloch Actives Carbon CX, High Tension strings. The resulting .wav file was, as usual, processed with the Audacity audio editor on Windows 10 to produce the .wma and .mp3 files below. Apart from cutting and splicing the audio wave file to eliminate some not so well succeeded sections, no special effects were added during the recording and editing sessions.

Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #13 (V3).wma
Sor, Fernando - Opus 60 #13 (V3).mp3

So, now, the table of posted (TPR) records is the following:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 21Dec18.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

mainterm
Posts: 373
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:47 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Hi, mainterm, thank you for your "comment" :D. Good question, but I do not have a simple and convincing answer. I understand your remark and agree with it: the fact that I can play any given piece at a fast tempo does not imply that I should do it. However, this #8, as you know, does not have any indication of tempo and, in my Chanterelle edition of "The Complete Studies…", Sor himself is quoted as saying: Lessons with no tempo indication should be studied slowly, increasing speed progressively as self-confidence is gained. And that's what I did. With the help of a metronome, I slowly increased the speed and at the time I posted my first record of the #8, on March 13th, 2017, I had reached 1/4 = 145 bpm (vivacíssimo). It sounded very nice and I then moved on to the following piece, the #9. However, I kept on playing the #8, as well as all the ones before it, as part of my daily guitar practice and, therefore, after some time, I could play it faster and faster, even faster than in my record posted yesterday (1/4 = 210 bpm, prestíssimo), but my son didn't like it that way and I slowed it down.

The question, then, is, which speed one should use? The one which pleases us best? Or is there another more objective criterium? I must say I like both, my version V1 and V2 :), but there might be a way out of this dilema, as, quoting Sor again, he says the following concerning the #9: This lesson is nothing more than the development of the preceding one. So, it seems that his intention was that both pieces, the #8 and the #9, should be played at the same tempo, no? Now, I'll be posting today my V2 of the #9, which I'm playing at 1/4 = 155 bpm. If the assumption that both pieces should be played at the same tempo is reasonable, and if you think that the tempo of my #9 (V2) is OK, then I should reduce the tempo of the #8 as well to 1/4 = 155 bpm as well. Would you agree?
Well - I certainly didn't mean to imply a judgement regarding your choice of tempo, rather to learn your thoughts on it. And to this end I appreciate your thorough response.

As for my opinion - were I to perform this piece before an audience, my musical instincts take me toward a slower tempo than you are using. I simply prefer to "sing" this piece more slowly - and as the melody is the same in the variation, I would keep the tempo the same for both as you reason above.

AND

Objective rules for Sor's tempos: this information - if it exists - is unknown to me. There's some scholarship on it, there's speculation, there's a fair bit of opinion, but objective criteria? No.

I suspect that if one wanted to embark on a music theory / notation research and analysis project you could do quite a lot with just the scores we have of Sor's music - I'm not aware of any such effort - at least not to the extent that a PhD dissertation in theory or analysis would require. Perhaps its out there, maybe someone here knows of such an effort...?

I've spent a fair bit of time reading about tempo in 19th century western art music and it's a rabbit hole. A really interesting rabbit hole, but not one that yields generic rules such as: Andante = <insert absolute/objective thing here>.

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