Musician or Player?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Julian Ward
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Julian Ward » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:24 pm

I just wrote a long post but it was boring...

In short - Musical snobbery is still very much at large in the Classical world!

I only care if you can PLAY! If you can play (and I mean REALLY play) then I don't care how you got there, because it absolutely doesn't matter! And IF you can PLAY then of course you are a musician.


Just seen above and will absolutely agree, Rod Stewart is a terrible musician! :D :D
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riffmeister
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by riffmeister » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:55 pm

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Who cares?

Play your musical instrument(s) of choice and have fun.

simonm
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by simonm » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:54 pm

Musician=generic term for excellent musical performer.
(guitar/piano/trombone) player is a specific category of musician.

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lucy
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by lucy » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:25 pm

How many classical guitarists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One Hundred.

It takes one guitarist to actually screw in the light bulb, and 99 to stand there and say "It wasn't screwed in exactly how it should have been."
"There is no duty we so much underrate as the duty of being happy.
By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world."
Robert Louis Stevenson

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slidika
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by slidika » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:31 pm

I would consider myself a musician as far as the piano goes, but a player on guitar. My knowledge of theory does not change between the two instruments, but my playing ability is much greater on piano -- hence, the difference for me.
Whenever I am not ready for my music lesson, I call it 'facing the music'.

Rognvald
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:15 pm

To the usual array of Rognvald critics(whose names are obvious but will go unmentioned), I will pose the following statements in rebuttal:

1. Arthur Rubenstein was a musician. Jerry Lee Lewis is a popular entertainer.
2. Wes Montgomery was a musician. Elvis Presley was a popular entertainer.
3. Nancy Wilson was a musician. Janis Joplin was a popular entertainer.
4. Sir Richard Burton was an actor. Sylvester Stallone is a popular entertainer.
5. Marlon Brando was an actor. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a popular entertainer.
6. Burt Lancaster was an actor. Dwayne Johnson is a popular entertainer.
7. etc., etc., etc

I think some members on this Forum have, perhaps, never thought about these ideas since they spend most of their time locked in a practice room believing that a musician is a machine that only becomes great based on the physical number of hours they have played(in practice) their instrument or by the material success(Paul McCarthy) of a particular entertainer who has gained wide popular appeal among the masses. And, their standards for the term "musician"(in this instance) reflect this basic naivete about what it means to be competent craftsman/artist since the concept of having ideas and being judgmental come from long hours of reflection apparently uncommon or unknown to this usual gaggle of detractors. The bottom line is if you use terms(musician) in a cavalier fashion, it's your business but you need to understand that it reflects on the real depth of who you are as a thinking, feeling person in a world where ideas of artistry and competence, sadly, have little or no real value. So, as a long time ice fisherman throughout most of my life, I will conclude with some wisdom given to me at a young age by an old Norweigan sailor who taught me the trade and whose advice I have assiduously followed throughout my life: avoid thin ice . . . it's dangerous to your health. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Erik Zurcher
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Erik Zurcher » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm

Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.
...I think some members on this Forum have, perhaps, never thought about these ideas since they spend most of their time locked in a practice room...
How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik
Reedition Domingo Esteso by Conde Hermanos 2004; Kenny Hill, model Barcelona 2001
"While you try to master classical guitar, prepare for a slave's life: the guitar will forever be your master and you its slave".

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Julian Ward
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Julian Ward » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm

Have you ever seen the original Rocky film Rognvald?
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jscott

Re: Musician or Player?

Post by jscott » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:46 pm

Rognvald, since you almost always end up with the same 'one size fits all' rant in the course of any thread that you participate in, can you just establish a single canned condensed version for all of our sake? You too; it's easier to copy and paste.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:21 pm

Rognvald wrote:To the usual array of Rognvald critics(whose names are obvious but will go unmentioned) ...
Not critics of Rognvald per se (no doubt you are as fine a fellow as any of us) but of your arguments.

Unfortunately this ...
Rognvald wrote: I will pose the following statements in rebuttal:

1. Arthur Rubenstein was a musician. Jerry Lee Lewis is a popular entertainer.
2. Wes Montgomery was a musician. Elvis Presley was a popular entertainer.
3. Nancy Wilson was a musician. Janis Joplin was a popular entertainer ...
... 7. etc., etc., etc
... does not constitute a rebuttal. It is nothing more than a list expressing your personal opinions which, without additional contextual information, can not even begin to serve to define your chosen terms, musician and player.

I believe that I understand the nub of your topic insofar as it pertains to musical artistry, yet I submit that there are many well educated musicians (to employ your singular definition) who might (rather cruelly) be described as mere "note players"; their technical accomplishment, their knowledge of form and harmony serving art not one whit.

Your argument is ill served by resort to ad hominem. Especially so as the thesis under attack having been invented by yourself renders any conclusion doubly fallacious.

Rognvald
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:40 pm

Erik Zurcher wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:34 pm
Rognvald, you never cease to amaze me about your assumptions on how people think.
...I think some members on this Forum have, perhaps, never thought about these ideas since they spend most of their time locked in a practice room...
How do you know that, have you asked them? If not, you don't think, you assume.

Back to lock myself in my practice room . . . Erik

Hi, Eric,
They are called opinions. They are based, in this case, not on direct personal contact but rather on their words. And if we deny the validity of opinions based on words expressed, we might as well revert to our descent from the trees into the African savannah and disregard the last 2500 years of Philosophy, Literature, Math, Science, and History based on the knowledge gained by reading peoples words rather than having met them or spoken with them. Some of the best "assumptions on how people think" have been with my friends Thomas Mann, Frederich Nietzche, Arthur Schoppaneur, T.S. Eliot, Max Beckmann, Georg Grosz, Ernest Hemingway, Beethoven, and Arthur Rubenstein who sadly I never have personally met-- to name a few. And, if you care to read some of the previous negative posts by those who you are apparently defending, you will see they make assumptions about me based on not knowing me and judging me by words filtered through their own individual animus and bias. Seems quite natural to me. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

jscott

Re: Musician or Player?

Post by jscott » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:26 pm

Actually most of the people on R's list O' Greats would have actively disliked each other. I wouldn't presume on their friendship! I mean, Nietszche warns about this very thing all the time.
Last edited by jscott on Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

A_Marshall
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by A_Marshall » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:08 pm

I think the difference is hidden in the terminology: player vs musician. A player is someone who has the ability to play the music, whereas a musician is someone who understands and can express the music. One is physical and the other is emotional. One is developed through practice and training and the other through life experience.

That's my two cents anyways. :wink:

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Adrian Allan » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 pm

These arguments are really laughably weak and ill-informed.

Your list of subjective examples is "fail" standard even on a first year-course.

Please provide a working definition of the term, "musician"
Please provide a working definition of the term, "entertainter".

Please clarify if the two terms are mutually exclusive.

It it possible to be a musician as well as an entertainer?
Do musicians also provide entertainment?
Can entertainers also be musicians?
Who gets to decide where the lines are drawn?

Until these basic questions are addressed, the foundations of your debate are as flimsy as a house of cards, and a meaningless and subjective rant.
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

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Lawler
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Re: Musician or Player?

Post by Lawler » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:38 pm

There are performances that sound artistic to me and there are those that don't. Any sense I may have of a performance's artistic value is dependent just as much on my own musical perspective as on the attributes of those making the music or the actual sound of the music they're making. Make a categorized list of your tastes if you like but there's no point arguing about it. I think it's a good thing, rather than a bad one, that we're all different.

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