I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
Paul Cezanne
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I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:07 am

I'm new to classical guitar, got my first guitar in late November. Sometimes when I would practice I'd have a pain in my lower left back, the side that had the foot on the footstool. But I ignored it...

Last Monday, while doing the extremely strenuous activity of tying my shoe :- ) I had an excruciating pain in that same spot. Now my back has been bad most of my adult lift. I take Advil, take it easy, and bear with it. But while I had nothing to do I'm reading these forums and I see that many others have had similar problems.

My guitar has a pre-amp in the center bottom, so I ordered a guitar strap and when it arrived I used it and the strap tied around my chair and went vertical. (This isn't that weird, I played cello for years.) I liked how it felt but I didn't like using the amp input as a structural member. So I ordered a Murata guitar stand, not for the lower bout, but for the bottom! You see, it looked an awful lot like a cello end pin that was 2 inches long. And yeah, it worked perfectly. So now I have a vertical cello without the hassle of drilling for an endpin.

So the standard guitar strap is tied in a knot around one of the chair back uprights. You tie this to length. Then you attach the Murata to the dead center bottom of the guitar. The Murata has an angle to it but it doesn't matter if it goes left or right, you'll hold the guitar where you want it. Then you sit, put the "endpin" of the Murata into the hold in the guitar strap. Now you are vertical! I lightly support the guitar with my upper calves, but that's just for positioning, the strap takes all the weight, but your legs let you quickly adjust the height of the guitar just by moving your legs in our out.

So here's some pictures...

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--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

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Christopher Langley
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:31 am

Paul,

That's bloody brillant.
Cordoba CP110

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:13 am

I've been experimenting with various strap lengths. I've been experiencing some interference with my left arm and the back of the chair. I watched a bunch of videos and many guitarist sit on the front edge of the chair. So I thought, this would eliminate and chair back interference! So I tried it. It was awful, this mean my thighs were now supporting the guitar and that just didn't work. So I went back to having the weight of the guitar support by the strap, and that worked out well. And curiously, the back of the chair wasn't an issue either!
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

RobMacKillop
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by RobMacKillop » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:22 am

Could you share a photo without you in it? It's not like you are ugly or anything! I want to see the strap connection with the chair.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:44 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:22 am
Could you share a photo without you in it? It's not like you are ugly or anything! I want to see the strap connection with the chair.
Each chair is different. This knot works for me. If I had to do it again I'd not get a guitar strap. You can find 2" nylon webbing and the buckles online and build a strap that fits your exact needs. Before I realized I had a horizontal bar back there I was putting a double knot in on of the sides. That was awful since you could never get the length correct. The guitar strap isn't long enough to simply loop it over the back either.

Image
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

Julio_E
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Julio_E » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:27 pm

Thank you for the pic. I had to chuckle at "not like you're ugly or anything" :)

I recently had strap pins installed and I like that it opens up the possibilities for holding the guitar. I will probably try your idea sometime too. I like having all these options. For me, in this brief period of having pins, I think it's helped me practice longer in a single practice session, by alternating methods during. I also like the method used by professionals Enrica Savigni & David Starobin as posted in a similar thread (which seems to work on my short-scale 610mm Alhambra). So many good ideas here. Like later today, I'm going to go buy some very inexpensive rubber washers to try out alternative strap locks.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:09 pm

Julio_E wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:27 pm
... I'm going to go buy some very inexpensive rubber washers to try out alternative strap locks.
What problem are you trying to solve? I just worry about volatiles in the rubber hurting the finish. Maybe felt washers instead?
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

Julio_E
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Julio_E » Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:22 pm

It's not a current problem, but rather more like some cheap insurance against possible accidental dropping of the guitar due to old or loose strap. I've read of this happening albeit possibly more with heavier guitars. I just purchased this washer for about 49 cents for a pair at a local hardware store. These are 3/8 x 7/8 x 1/16 size which fit the strap button nicely and snugly. After attaching and pulling and spinning the strap, it seems more secure than without. I think I read about this at a different site.
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Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:58 am

Julio_E wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:22 pm
It's not a current problem, but rather more like some cheap insurance against possible accidental dropping of the guitar due to old or loose strap.
That's a great idea!
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

soltirefa
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by soltirefa » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:14 pm

This is, of course, a means to an end, the end to be able to play better/easier. I read a lot about the means, but not so much about the end. Is playing better this way?

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robin loops
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robin loops » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:20 pm

Seems like you could also use the peg like an end pin if you attack an extension tube of some sort.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
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Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:31 pm

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:14 pm
This is, of course, a means to an end, the end to be able to play better/easier. I read a lot about the means, but not so much about the end. Is playing better this way?
I wouldn't know! And that's for two reasons. I'm only about 2 months into guitar playing so I can't answer if it is better or not, it's all hard for me. And the other reason is that I've played cello for several years about a decade ago, so it actually fells more natural to me than the traditional way!
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

Paul Cezanne
Student of the online lessons
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:04 pm
Location: Keene NH USA

Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:32 pm

robin loops wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:20 pm
Seems like you could also use the peg like an end pin if you attack an extension tube of some sort.
Oh certainly, I've been planning on try that. Getting the strap length correct is pretty fiddly. I'm just worried that then you'll have a sideways force levering on the bottom of the guitar. That just won't happening when the guitar is resting on the strap.
--
Repeat student D01, Student D02

I play vertically because of back and joint pain, plus my goal is to someday play a Brahms guitar like Paul Galbraith.

soltirefa
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Location: Southern California

Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by soltirefa » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:45 pm

I'm only about 2 months into guitar playing so I can't answer if it is better or not, it's all hard for me. And the other reason is that I've played cello for several years about a decade ago, so it actually fells more natural to me than the traditional way!
Well, my advice would be not to assume because you played the cello upright that therefore playing the guitar that way would be easier. I recommend you abort this project and learn to play the guitar in the traditional position.

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Julian Ward
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Julian Ward » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:24 pm

[media]

Don't knock it until you have seen it! Paul Galbraith is a fantastic player!
Classical guitar teacher

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