Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

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Paul Cezanne
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Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:54 pm

I'm just 2 months into playing guitar and I have given myself a stretch piece. The Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite #2. I fully expect this to take quite some time to play. I wanted to play in the original key but that goes down to C# which I can't do without some serious non-traditional tunings. So I went with the Yates transcriptions after some discussion in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=125162

So they arrived today and I can't even figure out how to play the 2nd measure! Man, this is going to be a challenge!

Image

Should the F really be played on the 2nd string up the neck a bit? I guess I can see that why with the second finger then? I guess that finger is better than the pinky because it is just stronger, but you have to move your hand so much.

Help a newbie here. Thanks!

Rasqeo
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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Rasqeo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:08 pm

Remember that fingerings are not set in stone. It’s likely that Yates chose to finger the f on the 2nd string because the tone is fuller than on the 1st string and the note will sustain longer (note the tie). To me it’s a matter of taste. I think, given that you’re playing an open e on the 1st string immediately before, then it’s fine to play the f on the 1st string.

By the way, this piece is harder than it looks. Are you sure you want to take it on now?

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by soltirefa » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:10 pm

That circle around the 2 at the note F means 2nd string. Be aware that Yates uses lots of Campanella fingering to achieve a ringing between notes. It's awesome when done well.

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by soltirefa » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:12 pm

PS. Note the other circles around numbers. In the first measure you're playing the A on the 4th string and the C on the 3rd string, for example.

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by astro64 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:14 pm

This choice of fingering lets the open E overlap with the f, the same choice appears in the next measure where the open B is allowed to overlap with the d on the third string. These choices are explained in the book, on page 162, look for "style brisé". Trying to play Bach after two months is likely not a good idea if you were to ask me, but of course that is up to you.

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henry dumay
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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by henry dumay » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:17 pm

IMO... this piece and all of Bach is WAY beyond beginner consideration.
2000 Olivo Chiliquinga Grand Concert (Equador)

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by soltirefa » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:17 pm

look for "style brisé".
Never eat the calamari at a bris.

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Crofty » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:36 am

henry dumay wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:17 pm
IMO... this piece and all of Bach is WAY beyond beginner consideration.
Never mind Bach, playing ANY piece when you genuinely don't understand fundamental elements of the notation is - to put it mildly - inadvisable.

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:19 am

Thanks for the advise and warnings, but how else will I learn unless I ask questions? And yes, I know this is way beyond me. Way way beyond me. But I'll just take it one measure at a time.

And at least I understood this notation, I just didn't believe that I understood. And I'm also sure that something else will trip me up a few measures later.

And what's wrong with a stretch goal? This seems to be a common theme, that I shouldn't even be attempting this. I read that same warning in the thread I referenced above. I'm really puzzled by that.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:44 am

LOL, that very measure is covered on page 163! (But I still don't know why the 2nd finger is used, not the 4th.)

Thats for the tip to read the back of the book. The text is densely written but quite informative. (And the type is way too small!)

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by soltirefa » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:47 am

(But I still don't know why the 2nd finger is used, not the 4th.)
Because the G# played with 1 is on the 4th string and the D is played with 3 on the 3rd string, making 2 fall naturally on the F. Also all those strings ring out. That's why he fingered it like that.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:51 am

Paul Cezanne wrote:Should the F really be played on the 2nd string up the neck a bit? I guess I can see that why with the second finger then? I guess that finger is better than the pinky because it is just stronger, but you have to move your hand so much.
You don't have to move your hand at all - you overlooked the fact that the arrangement begins in fifth position.
soltirefa wrote:
(But I still don't know why the 2nd finger is used, not the 4th.)
Because the G# played with 1 is on the 4th string and the D is played with 3 on the 3rd string, making 2 fall naturally on the F. Also all those strings ring out. That's why he fingered it like that.
As Soltifera points out, Yates is intent on creating a campanella style over-ringing effect but this is nothing more than an affectation on his part - and a complete misjudgement. One would think that he has no understanding of Bach at all regardless of the erudition shown elsewhere in the volume.

Fortunately there is an unfingered comparison score included - I advise you to work from that instead (at least to begin with), always bearing in mind that a linear approach will help you understand Bach's use of interval as an expressive, rhetorical device.

Expect a great deal of work.

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Crofty » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:36 pm

Mark - I particularly enjoyed "up the neck a bit" ....

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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Rasqeo » Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:48 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:51 am

As Soltifera points out, Yates is intent on creating a campanella style over-ringing effect but this is nothing more than an affectation on his part - and a complete misjudgement. One would think that he has no understanding of Bach at all regardless of the erudition shown elsewhere in the volume.
Bit harsh that in my opinion. To me it’s more a matter of taste rather than “not understanding Bach”. Presumably the reason some players use a Campanella is simply because it sounds so good on the guitar and I would have to agree. Whether that is true the spirit of Bach is another question but we are at the end of the day playing Bach on an instrument he didn’t write for. If you are going to be so strict in how Bach should be interpreted then you wouldn’t be playing him on a guitar at all.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Yates Bach Cello Suite #2 Prelude - Newbie help

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:40 pm

Rasqeo wrote:Bit harsh that in my opinion.
That was me holding back.
Rasqeo wrote:Presumably the reason some players use a Campanella is simply because it sounds so good on the guitar and I would have to agree.
If you feel that's a good enough reason to indulge in campanella then fine - an ear-tickling gimmick may well catch the attention and, as you say, taste inevitably plays its part in all of our fingering decisions.

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