I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Ergonomics and Posture for Classical Guitarists, Aches and Pains, Injuries, etc...
Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:09 am

soltirefa wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, my advice would be not to assume because you played the cello upright that therefore playing the guitar that way would be easier. I recommend you abort this project and learn to play the guitar in the traditional position.
Alas, my body won't let me. In the first post I spoke of the back pain but I didn't go into the magnitude of it. For the first few days I couldn't sleep more than a few hours at a time and it was about a week before I could walk more than just about the house.

Each of our bodies is capable of doing some things that others can't, and not being able to do things that other's find easy. We all need to work within our own personal limitations.
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soltirefa
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by soltirefa » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:35 am

n the first post I spoke of the back pain but I didn't go into the magnitude of it.
I see. Well, carry on then.

There have been threads about standing with a strap to relieve back pain. Not sure that would apply to you, but check it out.

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William Byrd
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by William Byrd » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:48 am

I find this to be quite bizarre but if it works, who are any of us to judge. To that end, I share this quote and look forward to more pictures.

No change in musical style will survive unless it is accompanied by a change in clothing style.
~Frank Zappa~
1965 Seizo Shinano No 93
1969 Sakazo Nakade No 1000G
1971 Mitsuru Tamura No 600
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James A. Showalter
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by James A. Showalter » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:47 pm

Paul,
I also went through a period over the past year dealing with back pain that I suspect was resultant to playing guitar. It was bad enough that I was not able to sleep at night without taking 500 mg of ibuprofen. I solved the problem by focusing my exercise regimen on developing upper body strength and I also went vertical. I acquired and use daily an inversion machine and hang by my feet which allows my spine and upper body to stretch and relax. I have a unique problem in that my right wrist is fused and I spent a considerable time trying to determine the best position for me holding the guitar so that I could reach more effectively. I tried elevating the left foot on a stool and holding the guitar in many different positions. It was really a problem and one of the positions I explored was to hold the guitar more vertical as you do which worked in that it allowed me to reach more effectively. I've been working on classical guitar through this forum for about 18 months now. Since I resolved the problem with my back pain I am finding that holding the guitar in the proper manner with a slight extension away from my body is really best for me. I now don't even think about the problem and I am becoming much more adept at using the right hand. I believe that you are making progress in your play using your supporting device and it seems to work for you but I suspect that it is not a long term cure for what ails you. I would address the back pain issue as the primary problem. Unless you have some kind of more serious orthopedic issue that prevents you from exercising and developing strength in those areas where you are having difficulty I would begin an exercise regimen targeted at increasing strength in the back and thereby improving your health. Hanging vertical is not for everybody but I will attest to its application as a good means for extension of the spine and shoulders that when included in an exercise regimen can improve back pain.

James
1972 Morris No. 12
1973 Ryoji Matsuoka, No. 20
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robin loops
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robin loops » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:56 pm

Paul Cezanne wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:32 pm
robin loops wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:20 pm
Seems like you could also use the peg like an end pin if you attack an extension tube of some sort.
Oh certainly, I've been planning on try that. Getting the strap length correct is pretty fiddly. I'm just worried that then you'll have a sideways force levering on the bottom of the guitar. That just won't happening when the guitar is resting on the strap.
That might be a problem. So perhaps some type of base to drop the pin down into that has some wiggle room for the pin angle to change. Maybe conical or perhaps even part of a drum stand (base only) or stool (with stem for upper part removed). Or attach a spring to the post of some type of base and insert pin in spring. This will allow it to flex instead of putting pressure on the guitar.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

jscott

Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by jscott » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:12 pm

Paul Cezanne wrote:
Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:09 am
soltirefa wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:45 pm
Well, my advice would be not to assume because you played the cello upright that therefore playing the guitar that way would be easier. I recommend you abort this project and learn to play the guitar in the traditional position.
Alas, my body won't let me. In the first post I spoke of the back pain but I didn't go into the magnitude of it. For the first few days I couldn't sleep more than a few hours at a time and it was about a week before I could walk more than just about the house
If you haven't tried this, a wedge pillow that raises your upper body to some degree is helpful for some people with back issues. Of course, you have to be a back sleeper for this to work.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:29 am

I know I need to exercise stretch more. Its the right thing to do. I even had to get a bigger and slower kayak because my old one shrunk. (Ok, maybe it didn't shrink but I no longer fit in it, I used to be more flexible.) Its just one of those things I keep meaning to start.

Side sleeper, sorry... (And we have a wedge in the attic from when my wife had surgery!)

I think a base would be too fiddly..., but cool idea!
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15070p3
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by 15070p3 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:54 am

Holding a guitar like a cello can be accomplished with a simple sling. The sling works in a traditional and flamenco sitting position too. I have experimented with this idea for a while, and I like it.
Watch this video:
Last edited by 15070p3 on Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - - Shakespeare

soltirefa
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by soltirefa » Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:03 am

See this video:
That guy should be given an award for the most succinct, well-explained video ever. So many people blather on and on and take five or more minutes to say what should only take one. I love it.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:46 am

15070p3 wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:54 am
Holding a guitar like a cello can be accomplished with a simple sling. The sling works in a traditional and flamenco sitting position too. I have experimented with this idea for a while, and I like it.
Thanks for responding. I had seen your video during my massive search. I almost when and got some fabric to try. But to me, whereas it looks like a great solution for traditional playing position, it didn't look like it would for vertical playing. I would thinking it would want to slip out. Does it? Can you post a photo of the sling with the guitar truly vertical, ala Galbraith?

If that way works it looks way cheaper than my way, more portable, and as I've found out, gives me great flexibility in choosing my chair position!
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15070p3
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by 15070p3 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:32 pm

Paul Cezanne wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:46 am

Thanks for responding. I had seen your video during my massive search. I almost when and got some fabric to try. But to me, whereas it looks like a great solution for traditional playing position, it didn't look like it would for vertical playing. I would thinking it would want to slip out. Does it? Can you post a photo of the sling with the guitar truly vertical, ala Galbraith?

If that way works it looks way cheaper than my way, more portable, and as I've found out, gives me great flexibility in choosing my chair position!
Using the simple sling, I have played for at least 30 hours in the Galbraith sitting position (guitar neck at > 80 degrees from the horizon). The guitar never slipped out of the sling. Even had it slipped out, my legs would have caught it.

Not that I am so ugly I can't post a picture of my holding the guitar in the vertical position. I simply don't have a tripod. And Charlie, my dog, can't help. The best I could do is to hang my guitar on the sling off a stand.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dBquegR5vgWq8hjn7

I made the sling from some clothes line which I bought from a dollar store (net cost about 50 cents for the amount of line used).

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gaRPkXfiW34aJkLDA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8tszTEUE6Sg7izXb6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oVaVvxeMzqNgPEuEA

The braid-like knitting is purely a gratuitous touch. Two knots are used, i) figure 8 loop, ii) taut-line hitch. Watch this video for more detail:



Hope it helps.
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - - Shakespeare

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:19 pm

I don't know about the strap. I took my guitar strap and a nylon strap from my kayak box and made a strap long enough just to test this out. Last night it felt great. Simple, it lets me use any chair, and really cheap also.

So today I went to play and my guitar almost fell out! I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. These two photos are after it shifted. I had placed it further along the upper bout.

Image

Image

Can you tell what I'm doing wrong? I want this to work!
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Christopher Langley
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Christopher Langley » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:47 pm

Paul Cezanne wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:19 pm


Can you tell what I'm doing wrong? I want this to work!
The cutout is sabotaging you. :desole:
My name is mud.

Paul Cezanne
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by Paul Cezanne » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:55 pm

Christopher Langley wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:47 pm
The cutout is sabotaging you. :desole:
That's what I'm thinking also.
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robin loops
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Re: I went vertical - but no cello endpin drilling!

Post by robin loops » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:07 am

Maybe something like the straps Mariachi players use would help (the ones with the hook for the sound hole). You might have to rework the strap but the hook parts could be useful. That being said, I've worried these type of straps put too much pressure on the soundboard, which even if it is structurally okay, might dampen the sound...

Tried to post a link but it was a commercial link. Search mariachi guitar strap and the type I'm referring to will show up.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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