Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:52 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:I was just guessing 1870s, but what would make it specifically 1880s? If the answer is in your statement, I'm afraid I'm missing the point.
sxedio wrote:My point is that the 'guitarras y bandurrias' label indicates making instruments for the domestic market. 'Guitarras y mandolinas' would be for a more international market that didn't exist before the very end of the 1870s.
For what it's worth Zavaleta's lists Garcia active as a maker of "guitarras y bandurrias" in Madrid c.1860.
Madrilena linked by Mr. Rain (if it's from Valencia) I am guessing is by Salvador Ibanez and would be later - do we know Mr. Rain?
What a fascinating and many faceted can of worms this topic has opened up (do worms have facets?). I had no idea how popular the Valencian school was but have now found around 20 builders and astonishingly (to me at least) Ibanez's company alone was producing 36,000 instruments per year by the end of the 19th century.
There may well be many more treasures to be found though the few examples I have seen so far suggest that Rob's guitar is probably of higher quality than those of the Valencian makers.
Hi Mark, let me explain you what I know.
Carlos Garcia was not building these guitars,he imported guitars built also in french style,so not sure if he was a real luthier or just a business man (or an invented name).
The other Madrilena picture, is a picture of part of my collection of Valencian guitars
, several collectors and 2 reputed luthier(one of the a dear personal friend) have inspected it,all of them agreed, it is a Valencian guitar...
These guitars (las "madrilenas") are nearly the same guitar as several Pau lisart and Sentchordi I have seen around (and some of my friends collect,one of them compulsively buying them...)
This style of Rosette( huge compared to the guitar) is very common during 1880-1890 in Valencian guitars, based on dated labels/guitars from Sentchordi and other builders.
Most of the Salvador Ibanez around are post 1900,he built also before that date (his dated labels start in 1888)...
Normally the model with a smaller rose are an indicative of post 1900 (not always,it depends on the builder,there are some Barcelona made Struch made but looking like 1880s valencians..so watch out)but that is the tendency when checking the labels (check boogard website if you want to learn more about this)
http://members.upc.nl/a.bogaard241/inde ... earch4.htm
Regarding production numbers i can tell you that there are a ton of "Salvador Ibanez e hijos"(after 1910 even till 1950 built by Julve in the later years) , not that they are not the same guitars as the ones built pre 1910 (generally heavier,thicker woods,ebony used for fretboards etc... ).
Also IMHO,if they are not made of rosewood they are not worthy the time of fixing them (there are plenty of mahogany and plain maple pre 1910,not worthy the time normally)
Finally regarding Rob's guitar(very ornate), I had several in my hands as ornate as his (even more, one of them in a shocking Abalone instead of mother of pearl...) In general the more ornate the higher the price and the better the construction (5 bars, more "peones" a cleaner inside work etc).
Also to remark that apart of this ornate models Salvador was selling "guitarras de concierto",less ornate but with an ebony fretboard.... I actually never have seen one in person but i know a collector having one (used to belong to Tarrega and has a picture of him with it)