NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:52 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:I was just guessing 1870s, but what would make it specifically 1880s? If the answer is in your statement, I'm afraid I'm missing the point.
sxedio wrote:My point is that the 'guitarras y bandurrias' label indicates making instruments for the domestic market. 'Guitarras y mandolinas' would be for a more international market that didn't exist before the very end of the 1870s.
For what it's worth Zavaleta's lists Garcia active as a maker of "guitarras y bandurrias" in Madrid c.1860.

The other Madrilena linked by Mr. Rain (if it's from Valencia) I am guessing is by Salvador Ibanez and would be later - do we know Mr. Rain?

What a fascinating and many faceted can of worms this topic has opened up (do worms have facets?). I had no idea how popular the Valencian school was but have now found around 20 builders and astonishingly (to me at least) Ibanez's company alone was producing 36,000 instruments per year by the end of the 19th century.

There may well be many more treasures to be found though the few examples I have seen so far suggest that Rob's guitar is probably of higher quality than those of the Valencian makers.

soltirefa
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by soltirefa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:09 pm

I just listened with earbuds in my ears and it sounded wonderful. I guess this supports the fact that guitars can last over a hundred years and still sound amazing.

gjo
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by gjo » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:28 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:09 pm
... (does no one listen to me?) :roll: :lol:
No! :D :lol: We have enough to do to look at the pictures and watch the clip :casque:

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:31 pm

:okok:

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Christopher Langley
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Christopher Langley » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:40 pm

Nice guitar.

Nice playing.

I think it suits you well Rob.
My name is mud.

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:48 pm

Cheers, Chris.

Mr.Rain
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Mr.Rain » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:57 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:52 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:I was just guessing 1870s, but what would make it specifically 1880s? If the answer is in your statement, I'm afraid I'm missing the point.
sxedio wrote:My point is that the 'guitarras y bandurrias' label indicates making instruments for the domestic market. 'Guitarras y mandolinas' would be for a more international market that didn't exist before the very end of the 1870s.
For what it's worth Zavaleta's lists Garcia active as a maker of "guitarras y bandurrias" in Madrid c.1860.

The other Madrilena linked by Mr. Rain (if it's from Valencia) I am guessing is by Salvador Ibanez and would be later - do we know Mr. Rain?

What a fascinating and many faceted can of worms this topic has opened up (do worms have facets?). I had no idea how popular the Valencian school was but have now found around 20 builders and astonishingly (to me at least) Ibanez's company alone was producing 36,000 instruments per year by the end of the 19th century.

There may well be many more treasures to be found though the few examples I have seen so far suggest that Rob's guitar is probably of higher quality than those of the Valencian makers.

Hi Mark, let me explain you what I know.

Carlos Garcia was not building these guitars,he imported guitars built also in french style,so not sure if he was a real luthier or just a business man (or an invented name).

The other Madrilena picture, is a picture of part of my collection of Valencian guitars :mrgreen: , several collectors and 2 reputed luthier(one of the a dear personal friend) have inspected it,all of them agreed, it is a Valencian guitar...

These guitars (las "madrilenas") are nearly the same guitar as several Pau lisart and Sentchordi I have seen around (and some of my friends collect,one of them compulsively buying them...)

This style of Rosette( huge compared to the guitar) is very common during 1880-1890 in Valencian guitars, based on dated labels/guitars from Sentchordi and other builders.

Most of the Salvador Ibanez around are post 1900,he built also before that date (his dated labels start in 1888)...

Normally the model with a smaller rose are an indicative of post 1900 (not always,it depends on the builder,there are some Barcelona made Struch made but looking like 1880s valencians..so watch out)but that is the tendency when checking the labels (check boogard website if you want to learn more about this)

http://members.upc.nl/a.bogaard241/inde ... earch4.htm

Regarding production numbers i can tell you that there are a ton of "Salvador Ibanez e hijos"(after 1910 even till 1950 built by Julve in the later years) , not that they are not the same guitars as the ones built pre 1910 (generally heavier,thicker woods,ebony used for fretboards etc... ).

Also IMHO,if they are not made of rosewood they are not worthy the time of fixing them (there are plenty of mahogany and plain maple pre 1910,not worthy the time normally)

Finally regarding Rob's guitar(very ornate), I had several in my hands as ornate as his (even more, one of them in a shocking Abalone instead of mother of pearl...) In general the more ornate the higher the price and the better the construction (5 bars, more "peones" a cleaner inside work etc).

Also to remark that apart of this ornate models Salvador was selling "guitarras de concierto",less ornate but with an ebony fretboard.... I actually never have seen one in person but i know a collector having one (used to belong to Tarrega and has a picture of him with it)

RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:11 pm

Very interesting. Thank you.

Is there a written history of the Valencia luthiers from this period?

Mr.Rain
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Mr.Rain » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:27 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:11 pm
Very interesting. Thank you.

Is there a written history of the Valencia luthiers from this period?
I think Boogard is the biggest expert on this field,but there is not a lot of order neither info around (still he compiled a lot of info , mainly post 1900).

Plus there is a another factor, in Valencia all the luthiers had good relations family/friendship/former workers/commercial,that make some times guitars very difficult to identify (ie. I have a Salvador Ibanez with rosette that was used a lot by Andres Marin...).

They were selling/exchanging parts between factories, and even the plates used to make the labels!!(Rafael Vivo was sold or given some plates used by Salvador Ibanez till 1902,as he started using them when Salvador Ibanez changed his labels...)

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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by BellyDoc » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:36 am

For looking beyond the tornavoz, have you considered a flexible utility endoscope?
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RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:29 am

That must be one of the strangest questions I've ever been asked :lol: The answer is I have not.

Stephen Faulk
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Stephen Faulk » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:25 pm

.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Leo
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by Leo » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:11 pm

A great deep rich tone that is rare in modern guitars, good find, good price, and such a nice tune you played for this guitar. Triple the price and still a bargain. :)
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RobMacKillop
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:40 pm

Cheers, Leo. I agree.
Last edited by RobMacKillop on Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tateharmann
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Re: NGD: Spanish Guitar from c.1870 by Garcia

Post by tateharmann » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:44 pm

Hey Rob!

Super super cool! I love what the tornavoz does for flesh playing. I don't really think this is a second class instrument compared to Torres - it's probably right in the same class, just a lesser known maker. The same thing happens today - you pay $$$$ for a label. Did anyone even want a Smallman before John Williams picked one up? haha - I'm sure they did I'm just being dramatic.

Coincidentally, I've just acquired a 19th century instrument also! My NGD post is forthcoming - but I'll give you a little info: it's American made - and it's not a Martin haha. But just like your Garcia is probably as good as Torres, my Imperial is also probably as good as Martin. It's a very simple instrument and it's SUPER light. Maybe one of the lightest guitars I've ever picked up. Roughly 617 mm scale length and ladder braced top. It came with metal wound strings on it so I've got a gut set coming. My intention is to explore some of the 19th century American composers on it.

I had started a thread here on North American "classical" guitars last year, I think. And ever since then I've been looking for a good one: https://classicalguitardelcamp.com/view ... e6abe15bfc

I've since found some very interesting information on these guitars. Martin even copied a fan braced Spanish guitar in the 1840s! Here's some info on that: http://www.vintagemartin.com/Martin1840_Spanish.html (this one is really "blingy" like yours hehe)
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