Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Discussions relating to the classical guitar which don't fit elsewhere.
mainterm
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by mainterm » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:02 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:54 pm
[...]
As a PS, I'd like to add that it is extremely rare to hear Sor's music with the technique outlined by him in his Method. I have no qualms about people using modern techniques with his studies, as long as we admit that we are not saying, "This is how Sor played this" or "This is how this should be played". Anyone who doesn't play with Sor's technique is creating something different than what Sor intended. As for those few who, like me, try to understand his intentions, we soon realise that there is not enough information in his Method, as well as there being contradictions in what he espouses. In other words, I too cannot say "This is how Sor played this" or "This is how this should be played". It's all done in the spirit of enquiry, and I hope my approach is understood in that light.
Thanks for posting Rob - I for one, and I hope many others, greatly appreciate musicians such as yourself who embark on these enquiries and having examples such as the pieces you record readily available via online videos and discussed in forum's such as DC is in some part how this art survives and hopefully thrives into the 21st century.

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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:18 pm

Thank you, mainterm. I was hoping someone had read what I wrote :-) Sometimes I think people here think I'm insane :-) Good to know my work is appreciated.

troyatlarge
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by troyatlarge » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:56 pm

I am a late start for y'all's thread here, but I did decided to start on Op. 60 No 1 - it will take me a while to get it as I'm not as seasoned as many of y'all. Using the modern writing program I wrote out the music and added in my own right hand fingering, trying to follow the rule of alternate fingers, only starting in a way that seems to work out for the whole reasonably well. Given I really don't know much about what I'm doing, thought I would share it to see if any of you more advanced people might have suggestions or warnings against errors I might be mistakenly making. However, I can't presently figure out how to add an image..... hate to be so illiterate, but it is what it is... Perhaps someone knows where a copy of this music is that has the right hand fingering marked on it already.

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:47 pm

troyatlarge wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:56 pm
I am a late start for y'all's thread here, but I did decided to start on Op. 60 No 1 - it will take me a while to get it as I'm not as seasoned as many of y'all. Using the modern writing program I wrote out the music and added in my own right hand fingering, trying to follow the rule of alternate fingers, only starting in a way that seems to work out for the whole reasonably well. Given I really don't know much about what I'm doing, thought I would share it to see if any of you more advanced people might have suggestions or warnings against errors I might be mistakenly making. However, I can't presently figure out how to add an image..... hate to be so illiterate, but it is what it is... Perhaps someone knows where a copy of this music is that has the right hand fingering marked on it already.
Hi, troyatlarge, welcome to this Topic and I hope you will enjoy learning Sor's Opus 60 pieces. It's a good introduction to classic guitar, indeed. As for fingerings, I'm using the Chanterelle Edition of "Fernando Sor - The Complete Studies for Guitar" and in there you have fingerings for both hands as suggested by the Editor. Tecla also has a similar edition.

As for attaching images to your post you should convert first your score file into a picture file (.png of .jpeg, for instance) and write your post in "Full Editor & Preview" mode. In this mode there will be an "Attachments" button below the text editing area that you can use to upload your picture file and then position it in-line within your post. Mind you, there is a limit in the size of the file, some 300 KB I guess.

Good luck! :D
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:30 pm

Dear Friends:

Febrary is gone and it is now time to publish the corresponding statistical data over our participation in this thread for this past month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Feb_2019.png

A newcomer entered the thread, troyatlarge, welcome. I hope he becomes a regular poster and I look forward to hear his renditions of Sor's Opus 60 pieces. As usual, those in the graph with zero posts posted sometime in the past but not in this past January. Nevertheless, their names will be kept in the graph so that we all know whom ever participated in this Topic.

The graphic that follows represents the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Feb_2019.png

Though the number of posters decreased drastically, to my surprise, this thread seems to retain a reasonable audience... :D. I suspect this may be due to the fact that, by just pointing and clicking on an entry in the Excel file of the Table of Posted Records on my Google Drive, anyone can have access to the already reasonable number of renditions produced within the framework of this thread.

As for new records posted in February, there were 4, three posted by Robert Mackillop - the #2, #6 and #10 - and the #23 posted by Stephen Kenyon on February 9th. Also in February I presented a new rendition of the #17. I'm now preparing a new rendition of the #18.

Be aware that repeated records of the same piece are not accounted for - Robert Mackillop renditions of the #1 and #20, also posted in February, had already been posted on December 7th, 2016. In such cases, the date of the newest rendition just replaces the previous date in the Table of Posted Records (TPR) below.

Monthly Posted Records, 2016-2019.png

The following graph presents the Table of Posted Records (TPR) as of February 28th, 2019:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 28Feb19.png

Please notice the grading line showing the Elementary, Novice and Intermediate pieces in the Opus 60. Please notice also that this is just a picture file. However, by pointing at any individual cell in the corresponding TPR Excel file stored in my Google Drive, the reader is directed to the corresponding post in this thread where he will have available not only the audio file but all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

Finally, the next graphic depicts the total number of monthly posts and views in this Topic since Dec 2018.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts & Views_Dec18-Feb19.png

As the graphic shows, the number of post and views in this Topic is dwindling down... :(. That's life :).

I thank you all for your support to this Project

Best regards,

Jorge
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1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

BrianTakamine
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by BrianTakamine » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:30 am

Hi Jorge,
I would like to participate in this forum because I am playing pieces from Sor's Opus 60. I now have a genuine version which I got from IMSLP https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page. I have played several, of the studies, , # 13- 15, I think. I am working on # 1 right now, its been actually kind of a bear to memorize, but I think I made some progress this morning playing it backwards. It is cool that there is a forum for this topic.
Takamine CP132SC Solid Cedar top; Savarez 520 R Strings

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:21 am

BrianTakamine wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:30 am
Hi Jorge,
I would like to participate in this forum because I am playing pieces from Sor's Opus 60. I now have a genuine version which I got from IMSLP https://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page. I have played several, of the studies, , # 13- 15, I think. I am working on # 1 right now, its been actually kind of a bear to memorize, but I think I made some progress this morning playing it backwards. It is cool that there is a forum for this topic.
Hi, Brian, you are most welcome to this Topic, opened to everybody interested in learning (or re-learning :D) some or all the pieces of Sor's Opus 60. As for scores, I'm using the Chanterelle edition of Sor's "The Complete Studies for Guitar". There is also a similar Tecla edition, as well as an early edition in the archives of this Forum here.

I hope it is also you intention to post renditions of the pieces you are learning as you go along. You will certainly receive positive feedback which will help you to further improve your play along the way. If you are not familiar with the necessary procedures, I may help you :D.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm

I spent quite some time on #03. Since it is not technically difficult, I wanted to work on presentation (interpretation?). I wanted to get away from the very boring emphasize-first-beat-of-each-measure. I tried to apply harmonic analysis, especially stressing passing tones (suspended notes?) between chord transitions and chords that were the furthest from home. As you will see, it was hardly a ringing success. Part of the problem is that I do not have enough control over tone quality to make convincing changes in dynamics. I tried all kinds of things to get a more convincing tone, but so far the results are discouraging. There are other ways to enhance the dynamics: louder when climbing up the scale and softer when climbing down the scale. But I think that is too obvious to be very effective. The other way around is also a possiblity. I am going to continue to experiment and focus on presentation at the expense of needed work, especially in the right hand. Simply, if I do not find a satisfying way to present the music I am going to get bored.
My study notes:
  • This piece does not present any major technical difficulties.
  • I used broken chords on the first beat of every other measure to make sure that the rhythm is clear. I had some problems starting the broken chords on the beat because I was playing the bass note with an almost apoyando movement, and it was too slow.
  • As far as I know, it is impossible to play measure #5 as written. The A3-C2-E1 (the numbers refer to the string) chord at the start of measure 5 must be fingered with 1-3, not with 1-2 as written, otherwise you cannot sustain the half notes.
  • I had some insecurity in the last three measures. I also approached the last three measures completely differently the second time. I think the accentuation the second time was much better. In general, I do not think it is a good idea to completely change the accentuation in a repeat, it just confuses the listener. I have to find a different way to create variety in the repeats. Right now I am just trying to find a way to introduce some color into the overall piece by focusing on phrasing and harmonic development.

Comments welcome. That is the purpose of this group.
Sor_Op35_#03a.wma
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David Norton
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by David Norton » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:41 am

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:15 pm
I spent quite some time on #03. Since it is not technically difficult, I wanted to work on presentation (interpretation?).
Observation #1 is that the dotted rhythm needs to be made more evident. Much of the time it seems the notes are given equal time, instead of ling/short.

Measure 5 can be played as written by flopping your left index from being on the tip and going back down into a partial barre to cover the F, while not releasing the C.

I'd also recommend a bit of a pause on the F/c/a chord in the third-to-last measure, such as a singer might give when reaching the top note of an aria.
David Norton
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First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

soltirefa
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by soltirefa » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:06 am

Comments welcome. That is the purpose of this group.
I listened to your recording and read David's comments. I was not familiar with the piece, so I put Sor op35, no 3 in YouTube search to hear it. There are some good examples there of how it should sound. Success leaves clues. I see it's "Larghetto," which I take to mean "kinda slow." The YouTube versions I thought were best followed that line of thinking.

David's admonition to follow those dotted rhythms tightly is a good point.

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:56 am

David Norton wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:41 am

Observation #1 is that the dotted rhythm needs to be made more evident. Much of the time it seems the notes are given equal time, instead of ling/short.

Measure 5 can be played as written by flopping your left index from being on the tip and going back down into a partial barre to cover the F, while not releasing the C.

I'd also recommend a bit of a pause on the F/c/a chord in the third-to-last measure, such as a singer might give when reaching the top note of an aria.
  1. Dotted rhythms: Understood. Thanks for the comment. And agreed. That should not happen.
  2. Yes, I realized that measure 5 can be played with a hinged bar, but that is a very advanced technique. It surprises me that Sor would have meant that rather than a simple and obvious change in the fingering.
  3. I have a real problem getting myself to do singer's pauses here. There are two types of music: songs (arias, melody-driven) and dance (rhythm-driven). It seemed to me that this piece is a dance form, but maybe I am wrong. I think I will try that. Thanks.
Yisrael van Handel
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:58 am

soltirefa wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:06 am
Comments welcome. That is the purpose of this group.
I listened to your recording and read David's comments. <snip> I see it's "Larghetto," which I take to mean "kinda slow." The YouTube versions I thought were best followed that line of thinking.

David's admonition to follow those dotted rhythms tightly is a good point.
Thanks for your comments. I will take a look at YouTube. And I take David's comments very seriously. I will try his suggestions.
Yisrael van Handel
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Christopher Langley
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Christopher Langley » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:32 am



Whatcha guys think? :)
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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:05 pm

Christopher Langley wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:32 am
...

Whatcha guys think? :)
Very good, Christopher, congratulations. Fast enough, clean notes and a good tone. The #2 is learned, then, #3 is next, a bit more challenging in my opinion.

With this rendition of yours, the Table of Posted Records becomes:

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 21Mar19.png

The corresponding Excel file (TPR) is stored in my Google Drive and any Forum Member can download and use it at any time. By pointing to any particular post, the reader will have available not only the sound or video file but also all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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Jorge Oliveira
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Re: Let’s learn Sor’s Opus 60 together, shall we?

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:03 pm

Dear Friends:

Once more, here I am with the statistics of our participation in this thread for the last month, March 2019.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Mar_2019.png

Very little activity as you can see. The graphic that follows represents the daily ramp up of posts and views for the last month.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread, posts and views - Mar_2019.png

As for new records posted in February, there was only 1, posted by Christopher Langley, the #2.

Monthly Posted Records, 2016-2019.png

Mind you, repeated records of the same piece are not accounted for. In such cases, the date of the newest rendition just replaces the previous date in the Table of Posted Records (TPR) below.

Sor's Opus 60 recorded pieces as of 31Mar19.png

Please notice the grading line showing the Elementary, Novice and Intermediate pieces in the Opus 60. Please notice also that this is just a picture file. However, by pointing at any individual cell in the corresponding TPR Excel file stored in my Google Drive, the reader is directed to the corresponding post in this thread where he will have available not only the audio file but all the subsequent comments made by other Forum members.

Finally, the next graphic depicts the total number of monthly posts and views in this Topic since Dec 2018.

Delcamp Forum, Sor's Opus 60 thread - Montlhy Posts &amp; Views_Dec18-Mar19.png

As mentioned above, I have no explanation for the sudden surge of the number of views in the face of the dwindling number of posts... :(.
I thank you all for your support to this Project

Best regards,

Jorge
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
1972 - Kuniharu Nobe #8, 658/52, Spr, IN RW, Tokyo, JP
1976 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.50, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
1979 - Ryoji Matsuoka No.40, 650/53, Ced, IN RW, JP
2014 - Hermanos Camps Master Nº 3, 650/52, CA Ced, MG RW, Banyoles, ES

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