Segovia Estudio 6

A "classroom" environment for exchanging Technical Questions & Answers, How-To's, music theory concepts, etc.
Luis_Br
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 pm

Just would like to point my view.

I think that bringing melody out is not as simple as louder volume or playing harder. Projection and color may also change with different strokes. Articulation is also another way of detaching and calling attetion to something.

It does not mean you can reach different color or sound type only with a rest stroke, but I would like to point out that there are other things besides simple volume, which are generally negleted. Those are important alternatives to an instrument with limited volume resources.
This is also part of Tarrega or Segovian technique using modern Torres style guitars.

In my very short experience with a romantic guitar from Sor period, variation in sound color is much more subtle and require different technique to achieve. It may also be more difficult in poor guitars or those some with modern concepts that hinder color richness. IMO instrument influences greatly the aesthetics decision and I think trying to imitate another instrument technique is not so easy and sometimes generate a burlesque depiction.

For the study sake I think it is important to follow your teacher first, and later on you try several different options. I remember seeing Alvaro Pierri's study score with 6 different fingerings for several parts and passages. He said he would study through all of them up to the point he could decide which one is better. During the practice he would maybe even find out and try another fingering.

The effectiveness of the result is also different if you play in your silent room or if you play it to an audience of 2000 people in a theater without amplification. I think several Segovia's options and style were defined with this in mind.

I would also encourage not to see other players from youtube or whatever before you finish your version. Try to develop yourself from the paper alone. Instigate your reading abilities, your technique, your musical sense and your imagination. After you finished your version, you can look for what others have done and confront your version. Sutdying different styles, Sor or Segovia or others, is nice, it opens your mind, but I think music is above that. A music with rich harmony or deciding wether you should let the harmony ring is a musical decision above any style, IMO.

My view of this piece, to follow composer's intention, I think the most important thing is to respect the score. I think note durations and rests couldn't be more explicit in this study. I would strictly obey them. Soemtimes the rest stroke would help muting a string to respect the rest, sometimes it would prevent the required ringing. Maybe a different LH fingering would change completely their influence and result.

Crofty
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Crofty » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:21 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:43 pm


We know of his disaffection with various publishers - perhaps in part due to their less detailed, arbitrart as you put it, approach.
Mark: I never said that Sor's approach was arbitrart.

Luis_Br
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Luis_Br » Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:33 pm

I am not a specialist, I don't know if my score is the correct one, I use the old edition you find online for free in the Dutch library and others (I also have the Segovian one).
So I have one question from the pure score. If the notation means notes should ring implicitly, why would Sor (or the editor) care changing the note duration of the low E or A in measures 15-16?

Conall
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Conall » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:27 pm

Isn't it amazing how much controversy can be generated by a modest short etude by a composer largely unknown or ignored by non-guitarists?!

I like some of his best pieces and his etudes are great for students.

Personally I don't really care what Segovia would have done with it (though I have his edition among others) or would worry too much about Sor's unusual technique. Rest stroke seems reasonable for the melody (musically and technically) in my opinion but so does a good free stroke.

I use Sor a lot in teaching. His harmonies & melodies are pleasant and allow us teachers to adapt or use his etudes for all sorts of things, including rest stroke.

Please, let's get away from "this is the only right way of playing this". It isn't.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:44 pm

Did anyone say "this is the only right way of playing this"?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:21 pm

Crofty wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:We know of his disaffection with various publishers - perhaps in part due to their less detailed, arbitrary as you put it, approach.
Mark: I never said that Sor's approach was arbitrary.
No - I know that you meant guitar music in general Paul - I was just thinking about why Sor got p*ssed off with his publishers.

Arbitrart was simply an answering shot for emhatically.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:03 pm

Conall wrote:Isn't it amazing how much controversy can be generated by a modest short etude by a composer largely unknown or ignored by non-guitarists?!
Some players neither know nor care about the idiosyncrasies of individual composers, their techniques or their work methods - they just want the enjoyment of playing the notes and pleasing their audience - I see nothing wrong with that but ...

... I'm not one of them - for my own satisfaction - I want to know more than simply when and where a work was composed; did a particular person or event inspire it, where and on what occasion(s) might it have been performed, how does it reflect the social mores, artistic movements, politics, religion etc., etc.. All of that information informs my playing (whether the average audience member can tell the difference is another matter).

Bashing heads with someone of an opposing view can shake things loose. Though I have strong opinions of my own, I've learned quite a bit from a few members here and hope that they continue to offer their contributions, controversial or otherwise.

Conall
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Conall » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:49 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:44 pm
Did anyone say "this is the only right way of playing this"?
No, merely implied it: "must use rest stroke" (to paraphrase) certainly seems an example of this to me.

Conall
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Conall » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:59 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:03 pm
Conall wrote:Isn't it amazing how much controversy can be generated by a modest short etude by a composer largely unknown or ignored by non-guitarists?!
Some players neither know nor care about the idiosyncrasies of individual composers, their techniques or their work methods - they just want the enjoyment of playing the notes and pleasing their audience - I see nothing wrong with that but ...

... I'm not one of them - for my own satisfaction - I want to know more than simply when and where a work was composed; did a particular person or event inspire it, where and on what occasion(s) might it have been performed, how does it reflect the social mores, artistic movements, politics, religion etc., etc.. All of that information informs my playing (whether the average audience member can tell the difference is another matter).

Bashing heads with someone of an opposing view can shake things loose. Though I have strong opinions of my own, I've learned quite a bit from a few members here and hope that they continue to offer their contributions, controversial or otherwise.
Fair enough.

Discussion is good but sometimes (not necessarily yourself) it comes across as nitpicking.

When someone makes a catagorical but factually incorrect statement it's good to have those like yourself or Rob who have made a study of (eg) Sor's technique to point out errors - particularly if it's done kindly ( in the manner Rob does).

But it does get a bit wearing sometimes (again not necessarily yourself) ie when (especially) male egos start to make themselves felt through apparent attempted one-upmanship - and I apologise if I've fallen foul of doing the same ocassionally.

Crofty
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Crofty » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:31 pm

Conall

Since you wrote "not necessarily" a couple of times, I'm unclear what you actually are concerned about.

Your "nit-picking" is simply another person's need to understand and explore a variety of relevant and [to me] important details.

Mark's lecture at one of my Guitar Festivals, on the background to Sor's Mozart Variations, was, as an example of that, absolutely fascinating.

I'm far more concerned, on a forum like this, with people who offer advice with no factual foundation at all - and there have been examples on this thread.

To add a further detail in my own playing of this piece, and following on from the idea that rest/free strokes can be made to sound virtually identical, I do occasionally use a gentle rest stroke as a convenient way of damping a lower string.

I only mention that because it is illustrates the idea that one doesn't have to slavishly follow an early composer's method in order to [perhaps...] get close to what was the original intent.

Paul

Conall
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Conall » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:45 pm

Paul,

I'm just more of a "play as you wish" kind of a guy.

I've no problem with constructive criticism (in fact I appreciate it) but there are many ways to play Sor, Bach etc. It's good to know the composer's preferred way of playing his pieces but frankly, once he's put them out there / no longer with us we can do anything we like with his pieces (and will then be judged on the result of course).

And yes, I too find the trollish unsubstantiated claims of some less informed forum members (ie less informed than yourself, Rob, Mark etc) tiresome.

Jeez, think I'll retire....(to bed)....

RobMacKillop
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:52 pm

What an interesting discussion this is turning out to be.

Paul, I completely understand why you said that last sentence, though it does make me feel a little ill at ease over the term slavishly. It's surely not the right word, if I may be so bold. I study Sor's technique because of a number of reasons, not least that he is my favourite classical-period guitar composer. Studying his technique does indeed give me insights into his thinking, and I think that is always valid. Now, an important part of my approach is getting as close to the original intent, but then doing my own thing with it, some of it will stick, while some of it will get Rob-ified, for better or worse (usually the latter!). But I view that approach as better than starting off with an edited version, especially from someone not from Sor's time.

As for using a right-hand finger to damp a string, yes, I do that too. I wouldn't really call it a rest stroke, but what we call it doesn't matter much.

At the end of the day, we all have to do our own thing, which is entirely valid. For me, that means getting as close to the composer as I can, and then filtering that through my own approach to playing.

Crofty
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by Crofty » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:05 pm

Yeah, it was just a word Rob but I guess there may be people who concern themselves more with being "correct" than being musical [though, again, who's the judge of that?]

Basically I agree totally with your last paragraph and [as I've often discussed personally with Mark] I largely play to please myself and I do that by attempting to do exactly what you just wrote in that - an almost certainly doomed attempt to get close to the "truth".

I think it's the journey that I get pleasure from.

Paul

ps - Conall.

Sleep well!

RobMacKillop
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Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by RobMacKillop » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:10 pm

I hope the OP has learned something from all of this? Easy solutions are not always the best, though they sometimes can be. The more you learn, the more there is to learn, and hopefully your desire for learning will increase as well.

jscott

Re: Segovia Estudio 6

Post by jscott » Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:22 pm

Conall wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:49 pm
RobMacKillop wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:44 pm
Did anyone say "this is the only right way of playing this"?
No, merely implied it: "must use rest stroke" (to paraphrase) certainly seems an example of this to me.
"Merely implied"?? Paraphrase?? certainly seems?? That's a pretty squishy statement. If this is a reference to me, please reread my posts.

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