Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am

On the other hand, as far as I know, Julian Bream, John Williams, Manuel Barrueco, etc. managed to have less or no cracks on their instruments although they were having decades of international tours. That's the point of asking about JV's guitar. It seems like most luthiers hesitate to participate in this thread. I still have this question in the back of my mind "is a double top less resistant to cracks than other guitars?".

A very good guitar maker once explained to me that because the top is supported by 2 layers (DT) and probably nomex, it is less likely to crack or change in any way due to humidity and weather change. That makes me want to believe that they are crack looking braces on JV's guitar as some luthiers explained but again they seem too irregular for that, so...
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Tom
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Tom » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:13 am

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:56 am
Ken Whisler wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 am
Tom wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:56 pm
Many years back when he puts up his Fischer Taut on sale i was shocked to see now badly the top has wear and crack.
I saw him play that Fischer in a very dry and unforgiving hall, and he sounded superb on it.
Hi Ken, that might be true, a cracked instrument does not play with it's full potential... I'm sure he would sound superb on a 50$ amateur guitar too. I was hoping that some luthiers could answer my questions.
If you said is true, which i probably believe so, it will put a big question mark on why majority of the average player needs to pay for expensive luthier made guitar if the focus should be on their skill and not what guitar they play. Food for thought.....

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:37 pm

Tom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:13 am
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:56 am
Ken Whisler wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 am


I saw him play that Fischer in a very dry and unforgiving hall, and he sounded superb on it.
Hi Ken, that might be true, a cracked instrument does not play with it's full potential... I'm sure he would sound superb on a 50$ amateur guitar too. I was hoping that some luthiers could answer my questions.
If you said is true, which i probably believe so, it will put a big question mark on why majority of the average player needs to pay for expensive luthier made guitar if the focus should be on their skill and not what guitar they play. Food for thought.....
It's not about the skills and technique but musicality and musicianship. This is a common mistake that most guitarist make... they get stunned by the technique and virtuosity... but true skills and techniques are those paired with musicality and musicianship. As Beethoven said: “To play a wrong note is insignificant; to play without passion is inexcusable.” When a guitarists listens to another instrument that he may not know how to play or never tried to play it's the musicality that talks to us not the technique...

In regards to why pay for an expensive guitar, because we can get more beautiful tones and colors out of them. In addition, they have better playability and higher standards. A good guitarist can sound good on a cheap instrument, but he would sound great on a standard/well-made instrument which doesn't necessarily have to be super expensive (the same is true with other instruments). Why some instruments that certain famous guitarists play(ed) is over a different subject.
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Ken Whisler
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Ken Whisler » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:25 am

Tom wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:13 am
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:56 am
Ken Whisler wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 am


I saw him play that Fischer in a very dry and unforgiving hall, and he sounded superb on it.
Hi Ken, that might be true, a cracked instrument does not play with it's full potential... I'm sure he would sound superb on a 50$ amateur guitar too. I was hoping that some luthiers could answer my questions.
If you said is true, which i probably believe so, it will put a big question mark on why majority of the average player needs to pay for expensive luthier made guitar if the focus should be on their skill and not what guitar they play. Food for thought.....
I once saw a Canadian guitarist perform in that same dry hall on a Paracho made Ramirez knock-off. I forget his name, but he played very well and his own tone was nice, but the guitar itself was kind of lackluster. I couldn’t help but wonder if a more top shelf guitar would have helped him out a bit.
Ken Whisler, guitarist and luthier

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Chris Sobel
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
On the other hand, as far as I know, Julian Bream, John Williams, Manuel Barrueco, etc. managed to have less or no cracks on their instruments although they were having decades of international tours. That's the point of asking about JV's guitar. It seems like most luthiers hesitate to participate in this thread. I still have this question in the back of my mind "is a double top less resistant to cracks than other guitars?".

A very good guitar maker once explained to me that because the top is supported by 2 layers (DT) and probably nomex, it is less likely to crack or change in any way due to humidity and weather change. That makes me want to believe that they are crack looking braces on JV's guitar as some luthiers explained but again they seem too irregular for that, so...
Many of the players you just mentioned had guitars that have had 3-5 back replacements, dozens of major restorations and more.The Romanillos that Bream played had at least 3 different backs and new bracing put in at one time by Romanillos and Hauser, not to mention a bakers dozen of crack repairs. Elliott also did a major restoration on some of Breama guitars while he was on tour. The fact is guitars take a beating but most players aren’t privy to the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to keep those guitars running.

Chris

Edit: put Romnillos instead of 37 Hauser, mixed up the guitars
CE Sobel Guitars

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:37 pm

Chris Sobel wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:40 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
On the other hand, as far as I know, Julian Bream, John Williams, Manuel Barrueco, etc. managed to have less or no cracks on their instruments although they were having decades of international tours. That's the point of asking about JV's guitar. It seems like most luthiers hesitate to participate in this thread. I still have this question in the back of my mind "is a double top less resistant to cracks than other guitars?".

A very good guitar maker once explained to me that because the top is supported by 2 layers (DT) and probably nomex, it is less likely to crack or change in any way due to humidity and weather change. That makes me want to believe that they are crack looking braces on JV's guitar as some luthiers explained but again they seem too irregular for that, so...
Many of the players you just mentioned had guitars that have had 3-5 back replacements, dozens of major restorations and more.The Romanillos that Bream played had at least 3 different backs and new bracing put in at one time by Romanillos and Hauser, not to mention a bakers dozen of crack repairs. Elliott also did a major restoration on some of Breama guitars while he was on tour. The fact is guitars take a beating but most players aren’t privy to the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to keep those guitars running.

Chris

Edit: put Romnillos instead of 37 Hauser, mixed up the guitars
Hi Chris, it's good to know some of the behind the scene facts. Do you suggest that they were not taking good care of their instruments or that's the nature of the guitar?
Becoming a great musician is about becoming a great human being.

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Chris Sobel
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:51 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:37 pm
Chris Sobel wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:40 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am
On the other hand, as far as I know, Julian Bream, John Williams, Manuel Barrueco, etc. managed to have less or no cracks on their instruments although they were having decades of international tours. That's the point of asking about JV's guitar. It seems like most luthiers hesitate to participate in this thread. I still have this question in the back of my mind "is a double top less resistant to cracks than other guitars?".

A very good guitar maker once explained to me that because the top is supported by 2 layers (DT) and probably nomex, it is less likely to crack or change in any way due to humidity and weather change. That makes me want to believe that they are crack looking braces on JV's guitar as some luthiers explained but again they seem too irregular for that, so...
Many of the players you just mentioned had guitars that have had 3-5 back replacements, dozens of major restorations and more.The Romanillos that Bream played had at least 3 different backs and new bracing put in at one time by Romanillos and Hauser, not to mention a bakers dozen of crack repairs. Elliott also did a major restoration on some of Breama guitars while he was on tour. The fact is guitars take a beating but most players aren’t privy to the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to keep those guitars running.

Chris

Edit: put Romnillos instead of 37 Hauser, mixed up the guitars
Hi Chris, it's good to know some of the behind the scene facts. Do you suggest that they were not taking good care of their instruments or that's the nature of the guitar?
You know honestly I don’t know the details of their personal guitar care and I’m sure it varies from person to person. I can say this: even if you take good care of your guitar, it’s hard to fly to a place that’s 7% humidity in the winter, pull out your guitar for 4 hours to practice, put it back, and then take it on stage for several hours, and then repeat for literally up to 100 concerts a year for decades all in varying conditions, not to mention accidents like microphones dropping on guitars or baggage claim attendants throwing guitars around (all true stories)! If a guitar makes it out of that environment alive and with only a few cracks, it’s not just good care; it’s a miracle.
CE Sobel Guitars

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Beowulf
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Beowulf » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:29 pm

Chris Sobel wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:51 pm
You know honestly I don’t know the details of their personal guitar care and I’m sure it varies from person to person. I can say this: even if you take good care of your guitar, it’s hard to fly to a place that’s 7% humidity in the winter, pull out your guitar for 4 hours to practice, put it back, and then take it on stage for several hours, and then repeat for literally up to 100 concerts a year for decades all in varying conditions, not to mention accidents like microphones dropping on guitars or baggage claim attendants throwing guitars around (all true stories)! If a guitar makes it out of that environment alive and with only a few cracks, it’s not just good care; it’s a miracle.
This leads one take Richard Bruné's comment as to Segovia's "cavalier" treatment of his 1937 Hauser in context. Certainly, the dried sweat on the instrument fits that comment, however the broken tentallones and of course the microphone accident may be due to other things altogether.
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Chris Sobel » Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 pm

The cool thing though is how resilient the guitar is... given all this, many still sound just as good with a nice restoration!
CE Sobel Guitars

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Beowulf
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Beowulf » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:36 am

Chris Sobel wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 pm
The cool thing though is how resilient the guitar is... given all this, many still sound just as good with a nice restoration!
Quite right...and to all who restore: :bravo:
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:15 pm

Chris Sobel wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:39 pm
The cool thing though is how resilient the guitar is... given all this, many still sound just as good with a nice restoration!
Well that's right. But in the video, it doesn't seem like it's been restored but it still sounds OK although as I said slightly off on some notes more particularly. At the end, this thread didn't come to any conclusion...
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Lovemyguitar
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Lovemyguitar » Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:10 pm

Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:15 pm
...At the end, this thread didn't come to any conclusion...
Perhaps that is because everyone was essentially guessing about everything, yourself included. Without being able to examine, up close and personally, Jason Vieaux's guitar, and without knowing its detailed history, nobody could give you the definite answers that you seemed determined to obtain.

And, it is odd that you seem to want to assume (you mentioned it several times) that concert guitarists must not take good care of their guitars if they get cracks in them, considering how important their instruments are to them -- their livelihoods depend on them! And, from what I've heard and read about various concert guitarists, they are rather fond of their guitars, having usually put some time and effort into finding an instrument that is perfectly suited to them. In the Palmer book about Bream, it is revealed that Bream always bought a seat for his guitar when he flew, so as not to check it as luggage. That seems to indicate some major care for the instrument!

As several luthiers have pointed out, the drastic and constant environmental changes that a guitar undergoes on a concert tour is most likely the main cause of cracks. What more do you want?

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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:40 am

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:10 pm
Arash Ahmadi wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:15 pm
...At the end, this thread didn't come to any conclusion...
Perhaps that is because everyone was essentially guessing about everything, yourself included. Without being able to examine, up close and personally, Jason Vieaux's guitar, and without knowing its detailed history, nobody could give you the definite answers that you seemed determined to obtain.

And, it is odd that you seem to want to assume (you mentioned it several times) that concert guitarists must not take good care of their guitars if they get cracks in them, considering how important their instruments are to them -- their livelihoods depend on them! And, from what I've heard and read about various concert guitarists, they are rather fond of their guitars, having usually put some time and effort into finding an instrument that is perfectly suited to them. In the Palmer book about Bream, it is revealed that Bream always bought a seat for his guitar when he flew, so as not to check it as luggage. That seems to indicate some major care for the instrument!

As several luthiers have pointed out, the drastic and constant environmental changes that a guitar undergoes on a concert tour is most likely the main cause of cracks. What more do you want?
Thanks for your comment which oddly made another question for me that maybe you could provide a definite answer to, how did you manage to misunderstand the whole thing to this extend?
Becoming a great musician is about becoming a great human being.

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Lovemyguitar
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Lovemyguitar » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:29 pm

? You asked what was wrong with Vieaux's guitar, assuming that it was cracked, and along the way asking about whether it was due to the construction of his guitar (thin lattice-braced top), or his negligent treatment of it, or...., and you got answers as to why it may have been cracked (if it is, in fact, cracked...), almost all of which posited drastic changes in environmental conditions as the most likely cause of cracks (for any guitar).

As for the sound problems you think you hear, well, who knows? -- it's a recording made in a live environment, nobody knows the precise conditions of where or when or how it was recorded, did he have new strings on it, did he just arrive from a long flight, were there temperature/humidity fluctuations, is the sound on the video distorted for some reason? There are too many unknown variables for anybody to do anything but guess. There may not be anything wrong with the sound of his guitar at all.

However, if you want to think that his guitar sounds wrong because of cracks, and if you want to believe that thin-top lattice-braced guitars are therefore not stable, well, go ahead and think that, even though nobody else was suggesting it. Cheers!

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Arash Ahmadi
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Re: Something unusual about Jason Vieaux guitar...???

Post by Arash Ahmadi » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:04 pm

Lovemyguitar wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:29 pm
? You asked what was wrong with Vieaux's guitar, assuming that it was cracked, and along the way asking about whether it was due to the construction of his guitar (thin lattice-braced top), or his negligent treatment of it, or...., and you got answers as to why it may have been cracked (if it is, in fact, cracked...), almost all of which posited drastic changes in environmental conditions as the most likely cause of cracks (for any guitar).

As for the sound problems you think you hear, well, who knows? -- it's a recording made in a live environment, nobody knows the precise conditions of where or when or how it was recorded, did he have new strings on it, did he just arrive from a long flight, were there temperature/humidity fluctuations, is the sound on the video distorted for some reason? There are too many unknown variables for anybody to do anything but guess. There may not be anything wrong with the sound of his guitar at all.

However, if you want to think that his guitar sounds wrong because of cracks, and if you want to believe that thin-top lattice-braced guitars are therefore not stable, well, go ahead and think that, even though nobody else was suggesting it. Cheers!
Well since you got to the next level of putting words in my mouth, let's just agree to disagree. Cheers!
Becoming a great musician is about becoming a great human being.

"The duty of an artist is to take a demon and deliver an angel" (Dr. Elahi Ghomshei)

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