The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

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robert e
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by robert e » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:28 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:13 pm

9 minutes by cutting out parts of the Chaconne. Listen at around 6:48 and 7:22 to 7:23, that's where the cutting starts. :D
Whoa! That's a big chunk! Around 4 minutes, including the D major section. Nice catch. I must have zoned out?! I knew there must be a trick but didn't suspect 1/3 of it being cut.

robert e
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by robert e » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:31 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:50 pm
Here's Johnny Gandelsman playing the entire Chaconne, at a faster tempo than the Chaconne dance video where parts were omitted

Thanks. And a better look at the choke-up hold on the bow, too (there must be a more proper term than "choke-up" but I'm not a fiddler).

Stephen Faulk
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Stephen Faulk » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:38 am

gary macleod wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:20 pm
You can analyse all you want but the bottom line is that Fisk is messy, technically and musically. If he was starting out today he would rank as a poor amateur compared to today’s young guitarists. Finally the guitar is now reaching the same standards as other classical instruments but the likes of Fisk are still setting a bad example.
We’re not trying to justify what he’s doing, we’re trying to get at musical ideas with his performance as one of the examples and what it does.

I think his performance isn’t that bad. It’s not a disaster, he just made choices most guitarists don’t like,
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Stephen Faulk » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:33 am

gary macleod wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:20 pm
You can analyse all you want but the bottom line is that Fisk is messy, technically and musically. If he was starting out today he would rank as a poor amateur compared to today’s young guitarists. Finally the guitar is now reaching the same standards as other classical instruments but the likes of Fisk are still setting a bad example.
We’re not trying to justify what he’s doing, we’re trying to get at musical ideas with his performance as one of the examples and what it does.

I think his performance isn’t that bad. It’s not a disaster, he just made choices most guitarists don’t like.


Ranking as a poor amateur? That’s a stretch.

Anyway, if guitarists want to challenge being among the best of other instrumentalists then being able to look at nit only classical music, but any music associated with guitar is a must. The game isn’t strictly classical any longer and hasn’t been for some time.

Speaking about virtuosity, it’s not what it’s cracked up to be- we do now live in a time where virtuoso players are younger and more complete, but they stand on the shoulders of generations of players and pedagogues who figured out how to teach them. There are special teachers in all the categories of classical instruments who are not virtuosos themselves but valued as teachers because they know how music works. I could name a dozen or more off the top of my head. Virtuoso playing can be rather dry without someone helping a musician craft the rest of what makes a musician good.

There are treasured musicians today who aren’t playing technically to the standard of the limits of the moment who are important. Go on You Tube and watch any video of a master class by any kind of classical artist who is elderly and out of their prime in terms of command of a technical facility and watch them teach people with technique to burn.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Stephen Faulk » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:14 am

SteveL123 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:12 pm
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:28 pm
robert e wrote:... here's Johnny Gandelsman at around 9 minutes ...
Ok, I'm convinced - now how to achieve that without a bow ... ?
IMO, you can't play at the same speed on the classical guitar as on a violin and still be clean and musical. Violin has 4 strings, guitar has 6 and it's tuning is less logical than a violin which are in fifth's. Violin string length is 1/2 that of the guitar, thus LH shifts take less time. One bow stroke can play as many notes as your left hand fingers can fret, difficult to get that kind of speed with the right hand finger picking.
This is great stuff as I was hoping to get people talking about transcription problems and challenges. It’s all too often left out of the critical analysis of a transcribed piece. Context is still important no matter how much a transcription idea is normalized.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Stephen Faulk
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Stephen Faulk » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:19 am

robert e wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:58 pm
Stephen Faulk wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:32 am
The reason I posted those three examples of violinists working wasn’t to look at tempo, it was to look at bowing. And the difference between what a bow can do to shape the line and what plucking does or can do.

And how much latitude there is between style or intention depending on which bow is chosen. The two main choices in those examples are modern and baroque bows.
Thanks for that, Stephen, and if I may continue the topic just a bit, here's Johnny Gandelsman at around 9 minutes. He's known for his lilting, "dance-like" approach to the partitas, but this is still considerably faster than his usual tempo (a few examples of those youtube as well). Here he's accompanying dancers, though, and I suspect that he's adjusted the tempo of specific variations to accommodate the choreography. It's still a beautiful and masterful performance.

Anyway, I noticed that he's "choking up" on the bow, which is a thing violinists do, and which affects balance and maneuverability, as well as tonal palette. So here's a third choice; somewhat between the main options of modern and baroque. As well, some fiddlers use a 3/4 size Tourte bow, for a slightly different mix of qualities.

I’ll look at it later when I have better bandwidth.

But as it’s been pointed out the music is edited for the choreography- this is the other important battle in music /

Dancers will always try to blame a mess up on The guitars, take no crap from dancers!

Lol. :lol:
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

Terpfan
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Terpfan » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:06 pm

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:33 am

Ranking as a poor amateur? That’s a stretch.
Yes that's a stretch. If Fisk was 25yr old, most people will think he has potential but has to clean up his playing and not go over his head.

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eno
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by eno » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:10 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Fisk's playing style at all, I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. But to be objective we have to give him a credit for his accomplishments, abundance of transcriptions, musical projects, teaching, concerts and recordings and other contributions to the art of CG. Just check his website and biography But he is an innovator and rule-breaker, he possesses a charisma and that, quite understandably, gets many people upset. Being innovative in the conservative field of classical music performance is a risky business. Innovative people often tend to be less consistent in performance, hence some of his concert playing may not stand up to high performance standards. Similarly, Leo Brouwer, one of the greatest innovators in the CG scene, during his performance career was not the cleanest or very disciplined performer at all, check this out.

"I consider Eliot Fisk as one of the most brilliant, intelligent and gifted young musical artists of our times, not only amongst guitarists but in all the general field of instrumentalists. His clear and flexible technique, his noble style of interpreting the beauty of the classic compositions as well as the colourful music of today, put him at the top line of our artistic world."
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rojarosguitar
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by rojarosguitar » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:39 pm

As to the OP: I'm not a musicologist and also not a professional musician, so I can't claim to be able to offer any well grounded critique of that performance, and I don't have a need to. There are so many kinds of listening to music.

But from purely humane point of view my feeling is that it would have been enough just to say: 'Here is a performance I liked least of all performances I know, what do you think of it...'

I prefer this kind of a low key approach, though everybody certainly is entitled to like or dislike things and express this; and it also maybe would pair nicer with the OPosters user name...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:40 pm


musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:41 pm


musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:42 pm


musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:45 pm

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Last edited by musicbyandy on Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:57 pm

bodhisattva wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:31 am
I think this is the most disastrous "Chaconne" performance I've ever seen.
I'm thinking about performances of the Holst Chaconne? I've seen and heard some "disastrous" performances of the Holst "Chaconne" by middle school concert bands. Here's a video of a middle school concert band performing a chaconne: I think the performance is good!

Tonit
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Tonit » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:22 pm

Stephen Faulk wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:33 am
gary macleod wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:20 pm
You can analyse all you want but the bottom line is that Fisk is messy, technically and musically. If he was starting out today he would rank as a poor amateur compared to today’s young guitarists. Finally the guitar is now reaching the same standards as other classical instruments but the likes of Fisk are still setting a bad example.
We’re not trying to justify what he’s doing, we’re trying to get at musical ideas with his performance as one of the examples and what it does.

I think his performance isn’t that bad. It’s not a disaster, he just made choices most guitarists don’t like.


Ranking as a poor amateur? That’s a stretch.

Anyway, if guitarists want to challenge being among the best of other instrumentalists then being able to look at nit only classical music, but any music associated with guitar is a must. The game isn’t strictly classical any longer and hasn’t been for some time.

Speaking about virtuosity, it’s not what it’s cracked up to be- we do now live in a time where virtuoso players are younger and more complete, but they stand on the shoulders of generations of players and pedagogues who figured out how to teach them. There are special teachers in all the categories of classical instruments who are not virtuosos themselves but valued as teachers because they know how music works. I could name a dozen or more off the top of my head. Virtuoso playing can be rather dry without someone helping a musician craft the rest of what makes a musician good.

There are treasured musicians today who aren’t playing technically to the standard of the limits of the moment who are important. Go on You Tube and watch any video of a master class by any kind of classical artist who is elderly and out of their prime in terms of command of a technical facility and watch them teach people with technique to burn.
See I told you if they just thumbing up or down without why the discussion goes nowhere outside expressing their disgust aka venting.
I respect your keeping trying extensively. I wouldn't do that missing their position basis.

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