The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

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Conall
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Conall » Wed May 01, 2019 6:37 am

musicbyandy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:42 pm
One of my bathtime pastimes is trawling through YouTube listening to the Chaconne on unexpected instruments! I hadn't heard this one before. Some work ok in my opinion - others are ridiculously optimistic but it's amazing how many & varied instrumentalists want to give it a go. I think it's fair to say that if you can't play chords (eg recorder playing every chord as an unconvincing fast arpeggio) you're probably on a non-starter. At least we can very easily & effectively play chords on guitar and the arpeggio sections arguably sound more convincing than most other instruments including violin.

Tonit
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Tonit » Wed May 01, 2019 10:49 am

Conall wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:37 am
musicbyandy wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:42 pm
One of my bathtime pastimes is trawling through YouTube listening to the Chaconne on unexpected instruments! I hadn't heard this one before. Some work ok in my opinion - others are ridiculously optimistic but it's amazing how many & varied instrumentalists want to give it a go. I think it's fair to say that if you can't play chords (eg recorder playing every chord as an unconvincing fast arpeggio) you're probably on a non-starter. At least we can very easily & effectively play chords on guitar and the arpeggio sections arguably sound more convincing than most other instruments including violin.
Bravo! I have seen some Mikhail Leonchik videos but this I have missed somehow.
Dulcimers are very popular in Belarus and in Ukraine, and in the schools there is most likely a dedicated dulcimer department with a troop of players.
Also, there are extensive bandura versions of Bach and other composers that may be worth checking.

However, as I double-checked before posting, Mikhail was studying in Strauss Conservatory in Munchen, but in Jazz department. Now that's quite suggestive of the status of some part of classical society, or maybe the direction of the title "classical" point to today.

For me the title "classic" means not attitude but quality, whereas maybe I can say jazz or rock is attitude to some extent. We have to revive and rejuvinate those fossils somehow if we ever want to perform and entertain the art form today, and need to listen to how Fisk and other great musicians go about the business. In turn the "attitude" jazz or rock is dead as it sound to me, while I enjoy some dead jazz every now and then.

Cheers,

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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by MessyTendon » Wed May 01, 2019 2:22 pm

Bach was never written for guitar. Who cares how it is played? What does it matter? Bach is a waste of guitar. It sounds tinny and compressed. There is no dynamic range in guitar that can move the notes of a Bach score...No bass...no big midrange...just chuffing decaying notes...

Why Bach is a guitar standard is really only because academia insists upon it. Thus Bach and guitar is highly pretentious. If Fisk want's to assert his ego like every other Bach guitar player, so be it. But why bother calling it classical?

Neo-ego rock...Bach is the shred fest for the nylon guitarist. Too bad it sounds wimpy and contrived no matter who plays it on guitar.

musicbyandy
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by musicbyandy » Wed May 01, 2019 2:33 pm

Conall wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:37 am
O I think it's fair to say that if you can't play chords (eg recorder playing every chord as an unconvincing fast arpeggio) you're probably on a non-starter.





Conall
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Conall » Wed May 01, 2019 2:43 pm

I meant solo recorder - though that soloist certainly does his best!

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eno
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by eno » Wed May 01, 2019 2:51 pm

And, staying on the opposite extreme form a recorder, organ version sounds really good with a lot of polyphony and registers
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60moo
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by 60moo » Wed May 01, 2019 3:06 pm

MessyTendon wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:22 pm
Bach was never written for guitar. Who cares how it is played? What does it matter? Bach is a waste of guitar. It sounds tinny and compressed. There is no dynamic range in guitar that can move the notes of a Bach score...No bass...no big midrange...just chuffing decaying notes...

Why Bach is a guitar standard is really only because academia insists upon it. Thus Bach and guitar is highly pretentious. If Fisk want's to assert his ego like every other Bach guitar player, so be it. But why bother calling it classical?

Neo-ego rock...Bach is the shred fest for the nylon guitarist. Too bad it sounds wimpy and contrived no matter who plays it on guitar.
If you'd said "Chaconne" instead of "Bach" then you'd have some very valid points.

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eno
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by eno » Wed May 01, 2019 3:10 pm

What I like about this forum is its extremely wide range of opinions :)
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Tonit
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Tonit » Wed May 01, 2019 3:46 pm

MessyTendon wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:22 pm
Bach was never written for guitar. Who cares how it is played? What does it matter? Bach is a waste of guitar. It sounds tinny and compressed. There is no dynamic range in guitar that can move the notes of a Bach score...No bass...no big midrange...just chuffing decaying notes...

Why Bach is a guitar standard is really only because academia insists upon it. Thus Bach and guitar is highly pretentious. If Fisk want's to assert his ego like every other Bach guitar player, so be it. But why bother calling it classical?

Neo-ego rock...Bach is the shred fest for the nylon guitarist. Too bad it sounds wimpy and contrived no matter who plays it on guitar.
There is always a challenge or two even when playing lute stuffs, which probably let us always come back at it.

When we could discuss with less prejudice or prerequisites, by briefing particularly which aspect of which performance is utterly unacceptable, or "disasterous" compared to which, the discussion would be more constructive and informative. Some are doing it but mostly it turns out merely a like/dislike poll with hollow commentary on the masterful art the cost of which hopefully we could more accurately estimate. IMHO.

Stephen Faulk
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Stephen Faulk » Wed May 01, 2019 4:46 pm

eno wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:51 pm
And, staying on the opposite extreme form a recorder, organ version sounds really good with a lot of polyphony and registers
It’s very likely Bach wrote the partitas and sonatas on a combination of violin and organ.
Patience at the bending iron pays in rounded dividends!

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John Oster
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by John Oster » Wed May 01, 2019 4:53 pm

eno wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:10 pm
What I like about this forum is its extremely wide range of opinions :)
Yes, but many are stated as absolute truths rather than opinions, which makes them hard to stomach.
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Tonit
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Tonit » Wed May 01, 2019 5:30 pm

John Oster wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 4:53 pm
eno wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:10 pm
What I like about this forum is its extremely wide range of opinions :)
Yes, but many are stated as absolute truths rather than opinions, which makes them hard to stomach.
True it is designed to upset the audience from the very beginning whether as a media strategy or else.

ddray
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by ddray » Thu May 02, 2019 2:10 am

MessyTendon wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 2:22 pm
Bach was never written for guitar. Who cares how it is played? What does it matter? Bach is a waste of guitar. It sounds tinny and compressed. There is no dynamic range in guitar that can move the notes of a Bach score...No bass...no big midrange...just chuffing decaying notes...

Why Bach is a guitar standard is really only because academia insists upon it. Thus Bach and guitar is highly pretentious. If Fisk want's to assert his ego like every other Bach guitar player, so be it. But why bother calling it classical?
...
No, I think it's because the standard guitar-specific repertoire overall is lacking. Having only Sor, Giuliani et al is a dead end. Sorry. People can get angry at that oft-expressed opinion of mine, but deep down you know it's true. Some things works on guitar, some don't. But I won't trash attempts to expand a repertoire that is in need of expansion.
PS: if you think the guitar sounds "tinny and compressed" with "no bass and no big midrange" and quick decay, listen to a clavichord some time. That was apparently one of Bach's favorite instruments.

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60moo
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by 60moo » Thu May 02, 2019 5:34 am

ddray wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:10 am
Some things works on guitar, some don't. But I won't trash attempts to expand a repertoire that is in need of expansion.
Agreed, a lot of the "standard repertoire" - standard for other instruments - doesn't often work very well on guitar. Therefore it follows that a repertoire most suited to the guitar is one which appeals to the very essence of the instrument - pieces which 'just sound right'.

On that basis, I disagree that the guitar's repertoire is necessarily in need of expansion. I would estimate that there are many thousands of pieces, performable on a concert stage, by capable hands, which would go down very well with general audiences. The repertoire I would argue just needs exposure, not expansion.

For example, the breadth of modern works from Latin America alone is simply astonishing. Then there is so much really good lute music from the Renaissance which I continue to discover trawling through YouTube. Transcriptions of ethnic folkloric music also translate surprisingly well to the guitar.

Put another way, they sound far better on guitar than even the best Chaconne on guitar.

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Michael.N.
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Re: The most disastrous "Chaconne" ever seen

Post by Michael.N. » Thu May 02, 2019 6:42 am

In terms of power and sustain the guitar simply cannot compete with the violin. There's no point in trying. . . . . but then again:

Last edited by Michael.N. on Thu May 02, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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