G7sus2?

Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.
Forum rules
III Our MP3, WMV, MOV, OGG, AVI, Authors' rights

Composers' Workshop
Theory and practice of composition and arranging for classical guitar, discussion of works in progress, etc.

Once you have subscribed to the 002 group, you can attach the following types of files to your messages:
Audio : .mp3 .ogg .wav .flac
Video : .avi .flv .mov .wmv
Score : .pdf .jpg .gif .png
Finale: .mus
DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:08 am

Not sure this is the best forum but I am sure those contributing can help me understand more about the significance of chord nomenclature and voicing.

I came across G D F A labelled G7sus2. Looking at the note sequence with A at the top I asked myself why this was not marked G7+9.
It occurred to me the author figured that without the third, B, a sus2 chord was the most accurate description. With further reading I came across reference to the substituted 2 being best employed next to the root to get the best effect (dissonance) from the sus2 chord, and here I am looking at A in the melody which supported my G7+9 interpretation. So if there is no third in G7+9 does the chord become G7sus2? If so can the chord still function as G7+9 with A is the melodic note and no B (3rd)? I suspect this trivial labelling question may actually may open up some interesting points of view by experienced players. Since my knowledge of music theory would hardly fill a thimble, I am curious to hear comments from players who have first hand preferences in how they name and handle such chords in practice.

PeteJ
Posts: 1384
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:52 pm

Re: G7sus2?

Post by PeteJ » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:26 pm

It seems to me you're view is correct. I see no reason why a 7/sus2 chord should not stand in for a 7/9 chord but they will sound different. The other way around is more likely to go wrong since the third may be unwanted.

DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:36 pm

Thanks for the Comment PeteJ.
So you reckon G7+9 is the correct term for GDFA? In other words the chord does not need the third to be called G7+9?

DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Sun Jul 07, 2019 12:45 pm

My other point is that unless the second is close to the root, labelling as G7sus2 is perhaps not best and G7+9 is a more suitable description. The position of the ‘A’ determines the character (sound) of the chord and therefore the name?

robert e
Posts: 739
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:49 pm

Re: G7sus2?

Post by robert e » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:23 pm

DigitalisVersatilitus wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:08 am
Since my knowledge of music theory would hardly fill a thimble, I am curious to hear comments from players who have first hand preferences in how they name and handle such chords in practice.
When I shook my thimble, what came out was Dm/G. :wink:

I don't know much about chord naming, but I know that both harmonic and stylistic contexts come into it, so it might help to know a bit more about the passage, the piece, and the publication.

Rognvald
Posts: 1145
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by Rognvald » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:44 pm

G7+9

Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

User avatar
bear
Posts: 4156
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:55 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: G7sus2?

Post by bear » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:00 pm

I have an app "Guitarist Reference". I plugged in the notes GDFA and got F 6/9 ?
2019 Gretsch G9126 432mm
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Giustina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

User avatar
tormodg
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:13 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: G7sus2?

Post by tormodg » Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:10 pm

It all depends on context and the order of the notes.

What exactly would make this a G7+9 and not just a G9 chord?
2017 Yngvar Thomassen spruce 640
1994 Alhambra 6P (cedar, battered, broken and repaired) 650
+ various steel string and electric guitars

Sold: 2014 Alhambra Linea Profesional (spruce)

DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:02 am

Wow! Of course I understand the importance of chord in context of musical passage. But the question arose from a chord diagram box which I thought was a bit dodgy in its description. To my simple mind I would name the chord as presented which means I take G as the root and A as the melodic. I read the construct as G7+9.
What is happening is that without the B the GDFA chord becomes ambiguous as a G chord and the tendency to write suspended chords as say G/F in this case supports that view.
Now Bear’s result is interesting as F 6/9 assumes F is the root, A is the third and the fifth is substituted with a sixth. This tends to endorse a view which argues the third is more critical to identifying the character of a chord than the fifth. That may explain the behaviour of the Guitar Reference app. Extended chords often keep the third and drop the fifth to carry the 9, 11 or 13. However I read and presented the original question on the assumption that G was the root. I read D as the fifth, F as the seventh and A as the ninth, the melody note. Dm/G and F6/9 are possible interpretations only if you assume a different root.
I guess that exhausts the options really. The moral of the story seems to be that without a musical context a chord name can be a rubbery concept. Whatever we call the GDFA chord, it it sounds the same unless you rearrange the notes. Thank you all for your input.

User avatar
tormodg
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:13 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: G7sus2?

Post by tormodg » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:04 am

I still wonder why you consider it a G7+9 and not a G9. :) Since the 7 is also there I interpret it as a G9 chord.
2017 Yngvar Thomassen spruce 640
1994 Alhambra 6P (cedar, battered, broken and repaired) 650
+ various steel string and electric guitars

Sold: 2014 Alhambra Linea Profesional (spruce)

DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:50 am

Hi tormodg,
Well you are correct about G9. I seem to be labouring the seventh. Research shows I need not mention it as G9 always includes a seventh which is exactly your point.

This is from Wikipedia:
There is a difference between a major ninth chord and a dominant ninth chord. A dominant ninth is a dominant chord (and minor seventh) with a major ninth. A major ninth chord (e.g., Cmaj9), as an extended chord, adds the major seventh along with the ninth to the major triad. Thus, a Cmaj9 consists of C E G B and D. When the symbol "9" is not preceded by the word "major" or "maj" (e.g., C9), the chord is a dominant ninth. That is, the implied seventh chord is a dominant seventh, i.e. a major triad plus the minor seventh, to which the ninth is added: e.g., a C9 consists of C, E, G, B♭ and D.

However, without the third, the GDFA chord is not a true G9 is it? If so, it returns us to the G7sus2 description. I was hoping someone would say the voicing will help determine the name of the chord. If voicing modifies the chord function, it would modify the chord name. To me, G9 would be better than G sus2 because the A, placed an octave above the root, functions more as a melody note than as a sus2 harmonic dissonance. Am I right or wrong?

User avatar
tormodg
Posts: 505
Joined: Sun May 11, 2014 11:13 am
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: G7sus2?

Post by tormodg » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:20 am

You're probably right about the sus 2 since there is no 3rd. I have also seen G9 (no 3rd) as an example. I guess that would imply a different context, since a sus chord should naturally resolve differently than a 7 or 9 dominant.

G7 sus 4 is probably a more common variant than the 7 sus 2.

But confusion abounds. Look at this page:
https://www.scales-chords.com/chord/guitar/G7sus2

It is titled "G7 sus 2" chords yet all the chords shown are listed as "G9 sus 2". :)
2017 Yngvar Thomassen spruce 640
1994 Alhambra 6P (cedar, battered, broken and repaired) 650
+ various steel string and electric guitars

Sold: 2014 Alhambra Linea Profesional (spruce)

DigitalisVersatilitus
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 am

Re: G7sus2?

Post by DigitalisVersatilitus » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:15 am

Yes indeedy. Next to the piano keys on that site is the chord G7sus2 applied to Uke, Banjo etc. The Uke chord is the one which started my quest for clarity. Listening to all the examples which are clearly played on an open barrel, the aperture of which is tightly strung with construction wire. I do detect a more edgy sound from those examples structured Root G followed by A. The other 6 string chords are virtually interchangeable.
My impression is that as chords become more ambiguous (missing 3rds), like diminished chords (all thirds), there is more than one possible root so the chord can be named many ways. The most suitable name is that which fits into the harmony of a given musical phrase.

The more I learn the less I seem to know. Thank you for your observations tormodg and all other contributors. You have helped me better understand the ambiguities of chord description and the limitations of my own experience.

Clayton

Re: G7sus2?

Post by Clayton » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:40 am

DigitalisVersatilitus wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:15 am
My impression is that as chords become more ambiguous (missing 3rds), like diminished chords (all thirds), there is more than one possible root so the chord can be named many ways. The most suitable name is that which fits into the harmony of a given musical phrase.
What did you go with in the end? I think there is a difference between labelling for chord boxes (where the point is to help the player find the right shape quickly) and labelling for analysis. If labelling for analysis I think it depends where each note of the chord comes from and goes to. I didn't see that info above but would be interested to know. I think there are plenty of situations where the same chord could just as well be called G9 or Gsus2. I don't think you can label chords based on sonority, because you'd need to specify all the intervals, and then it wouldn't really be a label.

Return to “Composers' Workshop”