Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

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lacatedral
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Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by lacatedral » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:11 am

Greetings, this is a video I recorded today of my teacher, Victor Villadangos, playing an excerpt of Asturias. It may help others analyze right hand movements. It was recorded at normal full speed and then the video proceeds with the slow motion function.
He uses thumb rest stroke and then medium-index for the B string. I think the most notorious thing is that he, like many other professional guitarists, uses his knuckle joint to approximate the finger to the string vertically, then the follow through is done with the middle joint. After the string is plucked the middle joint attacks in a way that it makes an "oval" movement to reset itself, instead of a "pendulum" motion towards the palm of the hand.
But that's only conjectures I make in base of what I see.
He also commented me he uses the Carlevaro's Fijación (I think the english traslation would be something like "fixation" or "fixed finger") for his middle and tip phalanx.


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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:12 am

The immediately observable thing here is that the knuckle is definitely not vertically over the string being plucked - not even close. Is that what you meant?

The knuckle does bring the finger to the string after which I see the action described so often in Guitbox's right-hand technique thread i.e. flexion of the middle and distal phalanges simultaneous with extension of the proximal.

Crofty
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Crofty » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:52 am

Seems an incredibly compressed hand position to me. That lowered wrist always makes me think of a footballer trying to take a penalty whist slightly squatting down.

Anyway, certainly not a position I would recommend but I guess everybody works out what works for them and produces the sound they want.

Paul

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lacatedral
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by lacatedral » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:57 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 6:12 am
The immediately observable thing here is that the knuckle is definitely not vertically over the string being plucked - not even close. Is that what you meant?

The knuckle does bring the finger to the string after which I see the action described so often in Guitbox's right-hand technique thread i.e. flexion of the middle and distal phalanges simultaneous with extension of the proximal.
What do you mean by "flexion" of the middle and distal phalanges?
I assume that by flexion you mean that once that the knuckle phalanx approaches the finger to the string, the string is contacted and then the middle and distal joints are now activated (by middle joint flexion I understand for example: that the middle joint "rotates" on itself so that the middle and distal phalanges are carried by the middle joint)
What do you mean by "extension" of proximal? I assume you mean that once that the middle and distal joints are activated (after plucking) the large joint phalanx resets itself with an oval movement (similar to Vidovic's index finger when performing Recuerdos de la Alhambra)

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:01 pm

lacatedral wrote:What do you mean by "flexion" ...
Close your fingers into a fist - this is flexion.
lacatedral wrote:What do you mean by "extension" ...
Open them up again - this is extension.

I think that you are seeing the same action as me - our language may differ.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by robert e » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:05 pm

Thank you for the video. I envy you--I think Mr. Villadangos is a wonderful musician. I especially admire his arrangements and performances of Piazzolla's music. Videos of him on youtube are not the best quality, so this close-up is welcome.
lacatedral wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:11 am
he, like many other professional guitarists, uses his knuckle joint to approximate the finger to the string vertically
On the index finger's approach, I'm also seeing extension of the middle joint while the knuckle flexes, so that the finger tip is approaching the string more perpendicularly to the guitar top than it would if the knuckle joint were acting alone. Hard to see if this is happening with the m finger as well.

This actually reminds me of a piano technique--a very light touch that uses the finger only (no hand or arm involvement) in a kind of "scratching" motion.

Naturally, I'm curious how common or rare this stroke is within his overall technique.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by kmurdick » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:32 pm

I don't think he should use a P rest stroke in this situation. It has a bad tone. Rest stroke with P is big thing these days, but a free stroke using the tip joint along with the other two P joints usually gives a better sound and is less tense. For example my students after the first week generally have a better P tone than your teacher. Your description of the free stroke in i and m is quite accurate. The stroke feels like a pendulum but it is actually an ellipse.




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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Sebastian » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:13 am

kmurdick wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:32 pm
I don't think he should use a P rest stroke in this situation. It has a bad tone. Rest stroke with P is big thing these days, but a free stroke using the tip joint along with the other two P joints usually gives a better sound and is less tense. For example my students after the first week generally have a better P tone than your teacher. Your description of the free stroke in i and m is quite accurate. The stroke feels like a pendulum but it is actually an ellipse.




Interesting, I used to use the thumb's tipjoint in that way, sometimes, but then stopped doing that because I didn't see any other guitarist doing that and thought it was wrong (and instead use all the thumb as unit from the knuckle joint).
Would you recommend using the tipjoint of the thumb that you describe for playing, for instance, Pujol's El Abejorro?
You're reading this.

kmurdick
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by kmurdick » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 pm

Yes, Sebastian, I think you could play P stroke on this piece using all three joints and following through each time.Really, just like in tremolo, the P isn't playing all that fast. BTW, David Russell more or less plays this way, and I don't think he ever uses P rest stroke. It is my belief that almost nothing is gained by using a lot of P rest stroke and many players develop a rather tense and limiting technique, often using a rather bizarre looking long P nail.

kmurdick
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by kmurdick » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:21 pm

Yes, Sebastian, I think you could play P stroke on this piece using all three joints and following through each time.Really, just like in tremolo, the P isn't playing all that fast. BTW, David Russell more or less plays this way, and I don't think he ever uses P rest stroke. It is my belief that almost nothing is gained by using a lot of P rest stroke and many players develop a rather tense and limiting technique, often using a rather bizarre looking long P nail.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:55 pm

I don't think problem with tone has to do with rest vs no-rest. Problem is overall hand positioning, finger technique etc. it is more complex than that. Different solutions might work, with different results equally good, according to your sound target.

As an exmple, Kayath uses a lot rest stroke with thumb and he has a great and robust tone and I don't see limitation or tense technique:



My impression is the opposite, this days people do not use rest stroke very much.
But I agree moving tip is another way, here one with great tone using more tip joint move and hardly using rest strokes:



In the first video of the topic (Asturias excerpt), I think wrist is too low and i,m fingers and hand moving too much and far from strings (we can even notice a wrong string being hit). Looks like a flamenco player, they generally like this lower wrist to play fast scales.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:08 pm

Luis_Br wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:55 pm
I think wrist is too low and i,m fingers and hand moving too much and far from strings (we can even notice a wrong string being hit). Looks like a flamenco player, they generally like this lower wrist to play fast scales.
The ultra low wrist is very characteristic of South American players from Argentina, Chile etc. It has been so for many years.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:08 pm
Luis_Br wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:55 pm
I think wrist is too low and i,m fingers and hand moving too much and far from strings (we can even notice a wrong string being hit). Looks like a flamenco player, they generally like this lower wrist to play fast scales.
The ultra low wrist is very characteristic of South American players from Argentina, Chile etc. It has been so for many years.
I haven't noticed that, maybe because I am more connected to the classical world, rather than from the folk world. I know a bit more the Argentinian ones, and it doesn't seem to me they use too low wrist. They actually use it for the muting technique, which they rather use a lot, but when they are not muting the strings, wrist is not so low (eg Juanjo Dominguez). But I will pay more attention and check this.

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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by guit-box » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:27 pm

lacatedral wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:11 am
Greetings, this is a video I recorded today of my teacher, Victor Villadangos, playing an excerpt of Asturias. It may help others analyze right hand movements. It was recorded at normal full speed and then the video proceeds with the slow motion function.
He uses thumb rest stroke and then medium-index for the B string. I think the most notorious thing is that he, like many other professional guitarists, uses his knuckle joint to approximate the finger to the string vertically, then the follow through is done with the middle joint. After the string is plucked the middle joint attacks in a way that it makes an "oval" movement to reset itself, instead of a "pendulum" motion towards the palm of the hand.
But that's only conjectures I make in base of what I see.
He also commented me he uses the Carlevaro's Fijación (I think the english traslation would be something like "fixation" or "fixed finger") for his middle and tip phalanx.

Not conjecture, seeing is believing and proving. I'd go one step further and say that not only does the middle and tip joint flexion follow through (effectively plucking the string and sounding the note) but the large joint extending is also contributing to the plucking, it's helping the middle/tip joints flexion thru the string. So really, it's not the flexion of the large knuckle that does the plucking, that just prepares the finger on the string, the extension of the large knuckle along with the flexion of the other joints is what produces the sound. However, the holding power of the large knuckle on the string just before the note is plucked gives the stability to make it all happen.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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guitarrista
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Re: Right hand technique of my teacher (Asturias excerpt).

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:40 pm

guit-box wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:27 pm
Not conjecture, seeing is believing and proving.
and signs with: "An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true."

OK then. :wink:
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

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