Japanese honing stones

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
ospandrade
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:38 pm
Location: Brazil

Japanese honing stones

Post by ospandrade » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:37 pm

Hello everyone,
I want to buy a Japanese stone to sharpen planers and chisels, my tools do not need corrections or they are not with the damaged wire. Would it be that if I buy a stone with 1000/6000 granulations, ie double granulation, would it be enough for a good edging, or would it take more stones?
I thank you all

Osmar
Brasil

Marcus Dominelli
Luthier
Posts: 2860
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:52 pm
Location: Victoria, B.C. Canada

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by Marcus Dominelli » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:12 pm

I hollow grind my planer and chisel blades on the grinder.
Then go to a 1000 grit Japanese water stone, followed by a 4000 grit water stone, and I get excellent results.
I do not flatten the back side of the blade (remove the burr) after the 1000 grit stone. I only remove the burr on the 4000 stone. This keeps the back of the blade shiny to a mirror edge, which is useful for seeing the reflection of the purflings when you want to cut perfect 45 degree miters.
I have never tried a 6000 or 8000 grit Japanese stone. The 4000 seems already very fine.

bftobin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by bftobin » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:01 pm

I have a 1200x stone and a 6000x stone, mainly because I got them as discontinued items cheap. I also got a 12000x stone cheap, but it dosen't seem to make much of a difference. The only other thing I use is a green honing compound.
There is an American luthier that has a great way to sharpen quickly if you're in the middle of a job. A honing guide to hold your blade, a sheet of 800x paper and a sheet of 1200x. Draw the blade back a few time on each (dry) and you're back to work in a few minutes. Just make sure your working on a 'dead flat' surface.

User avatar
geoff-bristol
Amateur luthier
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:31 pm
Location: Bristol - UK

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by geoff-bristol » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:57 pm

I use a wet grinder for primary bevels only. Then do a secondary bevel with an easelap 400/1200 diamond. I like them as they stay dead flat for planes when needed that way. Not cheap - but quality.
Then I finally hone wire edge with a King 4000 Japanese waterstone. Never felt the need for finer.
I have two 4000 stones - I keep one for just my veritas blades that are honed flat - the other I use for chisels etc small planes with scrub edges. That one occasionally gets a flat off - which is easy as they are so soft !
Sharpening should not be hit and miss - or take ages. It should be routine - however, I find it exceedingly boring - but revel in the results - thats life I suppose.

Matthew Masail
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:57 pm
Location: Israel

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by Matthew Masail » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:08 am

Used right a leather strop with green compound will get you where a 15000k water will and much much easier. Look up Paul Sellers his method is very good. I have an extensive stone collection, but nowadays Japanese water stones get used only for kitchen knives, though if I had Japanese tools with their laminated steel I'd bring water stones into the shop. If you'd like to use water stones for the experience, I'd suggest one fine stone for polishing and get some cheap 400grit diamond stones from the flea bay, the ones with the diamond pattern on them. Just note, diamond stones and oil stones (the norton India are great) are more suited to most Western tools.

* A grinder with a coarse CBN wheel is a spectacular thing, in case you ever wonder what the best investment might be.

vesa
Posts: 833
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:52 pm
Location: Sulva, Finland

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by vesa » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:51 am

1000 and 3000 grit japanese stones followed by
leather strop with fine valve grinding compound.

Vesa
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

simonm
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9234
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Spain, IB

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by simonm » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:32 am

You also need to make sure that "japanese" stones stay level. They are soft and if you don't keep this in mind you can quickly make them concave. I have two double stones, 1000/3000 and 3000/6000. More or less by accident. For practical purposes I don't think the 6000 does a lot. Sometime I might get a rougher one, maybe 400, for taking more material off damaged blades.

Jasonm
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:05 pm

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by Jasonm » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:32 pm

I use a 1000/6000 whetstone but most of the time I just stop on leather and that’s good enough for maintenance. I have a course grit diamond plate for leveling and rough work.

ospandrade
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:38 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by ospandrade » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:27 pm

Hello everyone,

Thank you very much for your answers, I have also sharpened my planer Stanley using water sandpapers, using as a base a glass plate. I believe that I am getting a good edging, I also have this feedback to position the correct angle. I am a hobbyist (luthier) and I live in an apartment, I need to make as little noise as possible, and I have managed.

What is happening is that I am not able to thin the rosewood used to make the bottom and sides of the guitar, the initial measurement is around 4mm and I need to leave at least 2.5mm or less, I end up making holes when I use the planer for thinning, I know it has the right sense of thinning, I'm doing it right, but I'm still not succeeding. I have already tested this same planer on a piece of cedar and I am able to remove very fine and even transparent tapes.

I use the planer for softer woods like the German spruce and I have had a good result!

I'm having to use sandpaper to get the desired thickness, I'm retired and time is not my problem, but getting sanding hard wood too we do not see the result appear, it's a hardness.

That's why I was thinking of buying the Japanese stone, I think I would get an edging infinitely superior to the water, am I dreaming?

Hugs to all

Osmar

simonm
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 9234
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Spain, IB

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by simonm » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:35 am

ospandrade wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:27 pm


... I live in an apartment, I need to make as little noise as possible,

... I have also sharpened my planer Stanley using water sandpapers, using as a base a glass plate ...

... not able to thin the rosewood

... I have already tested this same planer on a piece of cedar and I am able to remove very fine and even transparent tapes.
Sharpening with wet and dry sand paper and glass can be very effective. Getting transparent wood shavings suggests that the plane is quite sharp especially if you can do this with the plane "gliding" on wood without a lot of effort.

Rosewood is not the easiest wood to thickness and some of it is very hard. I would suggest you start a new thread about this topic so more people will be able to make suggestions.

Working in an apartment suggests a number of things to be aware of. Wood dust is extremely bad for your health (even though sometimes the smell is nice) and anyone else in the apartment. You must get a good dust mask and you must clean up very thoroughly all the time. If you have a balcony do the dusty work there.

Working in an apartment, it may be difficult to have a very stable, very flat, surface to plane on. This could be one of the reasons why you are having difficulty with rosewood.

James Frieson
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 5:09 am

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by James Frieson » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:43 pm

I have many , from 100 to 10,000 , because I am in Japan and I just picked them up .
I use the 8000 mostly
But you can get a good edge with 6000 .

bftobin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:02 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by bftobin » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:35 pm

Hardwoods can be more difficult. Two things that I find help are 1) take thinner shavings and 2) angle the plane to a more skewed angle. If that doesn't work, I go to my cabinet scraper. Cabinet scrapers are not very expensive and I believe all people working with wood should have one, they do a very good job.

kvg
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:33 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by kvg » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:12 pm

Remember to release pressure some time before switching to a finer one. Wash off all the clogs before switching too, besides always keeping the stone wet when honing.

This way you will find that you don't need more than two or at most three.

But please consider what Trevor Gore have written about diamond stone sharpening at the anzlf.com. It is both true and fast.

Personally I prefer Japanese honing stones because of the feeling.
Last edited by kvg on Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kvg
Posts: 162
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:33 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by kvg » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:20 pm

I think you can manage with one 200 - 400, one 800 - 1200 and one 5000 - 8000. But there are many possibilities, also depending on the brand/make.

Ernest Kleinman
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:18 pm

Re: Japanese honing stones

Post by Ernest Kleinman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:49 pm

There are many ways to get a sharp edge.Your backs must first be dead flat . I use a granite surface plate for that . Your japanese water stones , or oil stones must also be flat before using I use a coarse 100 grit japanese atoma diamond stone to flatten water stones.Other diamond stones coarse med and fine can also be used . I grind our plane blades at a primary bevel of 25 deg , and add a 35 deg secondary bevel . Hope this helps

Return to “Luthiers”