Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

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Ricflair
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Ricflair » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:31 pm

closet guitarist wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:55 pm
I was not referring to the left hand but to the right. I think I read about people breaking the ami when an even amount of notes were played on a particular string.
Yes, i agree. Even mixing slurs with ami strategically will increase fluidity and speed.
I agree it is not common to play at the speed in your video but, like you and as I said in my last post, I think most everyone can attain about that speed.

Sorry I do not have any recording kit. I had been thinking about it but was put off it a bit when I had asked about someone's recording on this forum and was chastised for my query.
[/quote]

An easy way to get decent recording quality, at least for YouTube, is a high quality smartphones. LG tend to have the best audio and mics on their high end phones. iPhones are usually fine too.
Graduate of Trump University School of Music.

closet guitarist
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by closet guitarist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:52 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:31 pm
closet guitarist wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:55 pm
I was not referring to the left hand but to the right. I think I read about people breaking the ami when an even amount of notes were played on a particular string.
Yes, i agree. Even mixing slurs with ami strategically will increase fluidity and speed.
I agree it is not common to play at the speed in your video but, like you and as I said in my last post, I think most everyone can attain about that speed.

Sorry I do not have any recording kit. I had been thinking about it but was put off it a bit when I had asked about someone's recording on this forum and was chastised for my query.
An easy way to get decent recording quality, at least for YouTube, is a high quality smartphones. LG tend to have the best audio and mics on their high end phones. iPhones are usually fine too.
[/quote]

Sorry mate I'm a bit of a luddite - don't have those devices.

closet guitarist
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by closet guitarist » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:29 pm

Hey Ric- just watched the videos in your post again. Just like the first time I watched I really enjoyed your Bach.

Cheers

Ricflair
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:01 pm

Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Ricflair » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:37 pm

closet guitarist wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:29 pm
Hey Ric- just watched the videos in your post again. Just like the first time I watched I really enjoyed your Bach.

Cheers
Thank you for your kind words! I am glad you liked it. 😀
Graduate of Trump University School of Music.

Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:26 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:13 pm


I don't feel like I'm cheating anymore and haven't for years. 😀 I have to disagree about not paying close attention to left hand fingerings and strings crossings in ami scales. Just continuously playing ami with irregular amounts of notes on the strings will slow you down. Crossing strings is key to playing fast scales. Also, I wouldn't say the speed Matt and I are playing at is common in classical guitar (if that's the video you are talking about). I'm not saying it's unattainable. On the contrary, I think it's attainable for anyone who wants to learn to do it. It seems even many advanced players struggle to play extended scales faster than 16th notes around 144-152. Do you have any videos that you can post of your scale methods?
I never heard Segovia, Bream, and Williams do extended scale at or above 144. Clean and consistent scale above 126 is definetly advanced and will have no problems with all the repertoire. Anything above is for the wow factor. Just my opinion.

Ricflair
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Ricflair » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:45 am

Terpfan wrote:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:26 pm
Ricflair wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:13 pm


I don't feel like I'm cheating anymore and haven't for years. 😀 I have to disagree about not paying close attention to left hand fingerings and strings crossings in ami scales. Just continuously playing ami with irregular amounts of notes on the strings will slow you down. Crossing strings is key to playing fast scales. Also, I wouldn't say the speed Matt and I are playing at is common in classical guitar (if that's the video you are talking about). I'm not saying it's unattainable. On the contrary, I think it's attainable for anyone who wants to learn to do it. It seems even many advanced players struggle to play extended scales faster than 16th notes around 144-152. Do you have any videos that you can post of your scale methods?
I never heard Segovia, Bream, and Williams do extended scale at or above 144. Clean and consistent scale above 126 is definetly advanced and will have no problems with all the repertoire. Anything above is for the wow factor. Just my opinion.
I would have to go back and listen, but I think all 3 played HVL Etude 7 scales at least around 144. Williams had monster technique back in the day. Even young Segovia had chops. I am sure they could play scales at 144. Bream, I am less sure of... All this said, even though I worked on speed, it is far more important to work on playing withh a beautiful tone and phrasing. Bream and Segovia (in his own way) were great at both). The new technical standard is crazy high and part of the reason many younger players are not very engaging to listen to. Becoming a good classical musician is the most important thing a classical guitarist could do. This rarely involves crazy shredding.😂
Graduate of Trump University School of Music.

closet guitarist
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by closet guitarist » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:24 pm

Hey Ric, what do you think the speed(BPMx4) is in your scales video with Matt?

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Tom Poore
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Tom Poore » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Terpfan wrote:I never heard Segovia, Bream, and Williams do extended scale at or above 144.
Bream in his prime could heat up the fingerboard. Skip to the 7:06 mark.


...or this, at the 3:18 mark.


Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA

Ricflair
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Ricflair » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:55 pm

closet guitarist wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:24 pm
Hey Ric, what do you think the speed(BPMx4) is in your scales video with Matt?
I am not sure. We were just messing around. It was written and recorded in about 15 minutes. All the scale passages in the video are grouped in 6. If I had to guess, maybe 120-132 bpm per 6 notes? I would have to clock it...
Graduate of Trump University School of Music.

closet guitarist
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 am

Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by closet guitarist » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:49 pm

Ricflair wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:55 pm
closet guitarist wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:24 pm
Hey Ric, what do you think the speed(BPMx4) is in your scales video with Matt?
I am not sure. We were just messing around. It was written and recorded in about 15 minutes. All the scale passages in the video are grouped in 6. If I had to guess, maybe 120-132 bpm per 6 notes? I would have to clock it...
So we are talking about 180-188 bpm(X4).

Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:53 pm

It's around 180. Which is very impressive. One of the hardest thing about fast scale is initial attack. It is a lot easier to start slower and speed up. A lot of player start slower in HVL etude #7 for example.

Rick, it seems like you were also an electric guitarist with super speed. What type of speed would you expect from advanced (but not super fast) student using ami scales??

guit-box
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by guit-box » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:38 am

I haven't heard any i,m alternating classical guitarists who can play as fast/clean/accurate as Matt Palmer does with his ami technique. Most all of the young virtuoso guitarists are using ami in some form to play faster. Of course musicality and other things are subjective, he's not as exciting to listen to as Bream. Paco and other flamenco guitarists can reach this speed with i,m technique but Bream, Segovia, and Williams can not, 3 fingers can simply go faster than 2.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:13 am

Matt Palmer's technique is phenomenal,(especially scales) is it too clean and effortless that it actually sounds slower than it is?? Or the lack of percussive rest stroke sound is the culprit??

Terpfan
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by Terpfan » Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:21 am

guit-box wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:38 am
I haven't heard any i,m alternating classical guitarists who can play as fast/clean/accurate as Matt Palmer does with his ami technique. Most all of the young virtuoso guitarists are using ami in some form to play faster. Of course musicality and other things are subjective, he's not as exciting to listen to as Bream. Paco and other flamenco guitarists can reach this speed with i,m technique but Bream, Segovia, and Williams can not, 3 fingers can simply go faster than 2.
Have you heard Ivan Rijos playing HVL etude #7??

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guitarrista
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Re: Matt Palmer's Fast Scale Book and approach

Post by guitarrista » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:23 am

Terpfan wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:13 am
Matt Palmer's technique is phenomenal,(especially scales) is it too clean and effortless that it actually sounds slower than it is?? Or the lack of percussive rest stroke sound is the culprit??
Hmm, good ear. It is objectively a bit slower(*) - 160-180(x4) range. Subjectively, it does not sound as clean, separated, and impressive as the same speed rest stroke scale. The slurs here and there probably contribute.

You are right about Rijos - he plays the intro scales in HVL Etude 7 in the range of 180-200(x4).

Also, 180(x4) is more like a warm-up speed for Paco de Lucia and some other flamencos of the younger generation. Paco's speed in scales was usually in the range 200-220(x4) in the Trio period (e.g. Friday Night in San Francisco album and concerts) when the pieces played were a bit more a show-off for the audience. This was absolutely effortless for him, which means he could go faster.

Flamenco guitarist Rafael Cortés has a video on youtube where he nails a descending scale at 230-240(x4) rest stroke, though the i-m alternation is combined with sweep picking with i when string-crossing, if I remember correctly (though that may be just what he was showcasing, meaning that he probably can do the same with strict i-m alternation as well).

Of course speedy picado is just a technique - there in service of the musical idea when called upon; not an end goal.

(*) Though I am surprised you picked that up. I've noticed that our brains tend to perceive fast notes spanning large pitch range, as in a 2-3 octave picado scale, as faster than the same objective speed but single string notes back and forth confined to a fourth, say, or even just one note repeated at the same speed.
Last edited by guitarrista on Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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