Translation of Coste's Method!

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crazyrach97
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Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:23 pm

Maybe you guys have seen this already, but here's a thesis that compares Sor's method with Coste's revision of same and includes a full translation into English of Coste's version, which I don't think is available anywhere else. Unfortunately the author omits most of the music, so you have to have it side-by side with one of the old facsimiles to really get into it. It's still really cool to be able to read it!

https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67 ... N-2017.pdf

KlaBueBaer
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by KlaBueBaer » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 am

thank you!
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crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:47 pm

KlaBueBaer wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:55 am
thank you!
Welcome! I must say i'm surprised more people aren't excited by this... maybe everyone else already has seen it?

BTW if anybody who works for a publishing house is reading this I'd pay good money for an actual book with an English translation and all of the music reengraved. These facsimiles are horrible! Does anybody know of a decent scan of Coste's method?

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:50 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:47 pm
I must say i'm surprised more people aren't excited by this... maybe everyone else already has seen it?

BTW if anybody who works for a publishing house is reading this I'd pay good money for an actual book with an English translation and all of the music reengraved....
i think very few people have an interest in this except as a historical curiosity. Think about it: you want a modern translation of an old revision of an even older method. So, its 3 degrees and X generations removed from its original intent. You might pay for it, but I'd guess sales would never even approach triple digits.

I think its unlikely that any of these historical methods would ever be revealed as the "perfect method" because there is no such thing. Methods come and go. Techniques and styles evolve along with construction, technology, and audiences.

If you really want it, do it yourself. Thats how these things came about in the first place; they evolved from a perceived need.

crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:12 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:50 pm

i think very few people have an interest in this except as a historical curiosity. Think about it: you want a modern translation of an old revision of an even older method. So, its 3 degrees and X generations removed from its original intent. You might pay for it, but I'd guess sales would never even approach triple digits.
I find it curious then that Sor's original method generates enough interest for Tecla to offer a book which is actually just a facsimile of the 1832 Merrick translation, but Coste's version wouldn't sell enough the justify an edition. Plus there's a modern translation from Editions Orphee which I'm tempted to pick up but not sure I can justify the expense. When you get right down to it Sor's book is an interesting read but a terrible method and anyway you can get a really clean facsimile of the Merrick translation online.

OTOH Coste's rendition looks a lot more like a practical method to me, and the facsimiles are pretty bad. Seems on the whole a more worthwhile effort.
I think its unlikely that any of these historical methods would ever be revealed as the "perfect method" because there is no such thing. Methods come and go. Techniques and styles evolve along with construction, technology, and audiences.
Aguado, Carcassi, and Sor don't have perfect methods either, but they're all available in modern editions.
If you really want it, do it yourself. Thats how these things came about in the first place; they evolved from a perceived need.
Now that sounds like a REALLY good excuse to get Finale! Might be something to consider for later... I don't see myself as anywhere near experienced enough a classical musician to make the judgement calls a project like that would require.

Dirck Nagy
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Dirck Nagy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:24 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:12 pm
...Plus there's a modern translation from Editions Orphee which I'm tempted to pick up but not sure I can justify the expense. .
crazyrach97 wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:47 pm
BTW if anybody who works for a publishing house is reading this I'd pay good money for an actual book with an English translation and all of the music reengraved.
well then, I guess you really wouldn't "pay good money for an actual book", would you?

RobMacKillop
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:34 pm

Rachel, I respectfully disagree about Sor's Method, which I believe is the greatest guitar method ever written. It should be used in conjunction with his Opus 60 studies, both published late in his life. The two go together.

crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:02 pm

Dirck Nagy wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:24 pm

well then, I guess you really wouldn't "pay good money for an actual book", would you?
There's a difference: I can get a beautiful facsimile of the English-translated Merrick edition of Sor's method without buying Tecla's book which is exactly the same thing. I'm still researching whether Orphee's version is sufficiently different from that to justify the expense. With the Coste there are mostly very messy facsimiles that I have to try and use side by side with the translation in the thesis in order to be able to use at all. Having the music reengraved and placed in it's proper context with the text... yes, I would pay for that. Maybe in ten years when I feel qualified I'll attempt it myself!
RobMacKillop wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:34 pm
Rachel, I respectfully disagree about Sor's Method, which I believe is the greatest guitar method ever written. It should be used in conjunction with his Opus 60 studies, both published late in his life. The two go together.
Hmm. I might have to read it again. To me it came off as at least as much spleen-venting and justifying as actually how to play the guitar. not to mention some questionable stuff... he tells you to set your guitar on the table, but according to the thesis I just linked nobody who ever saw him play mentioned seeing him do that. Weird. I'm not going to tackle a full collection of studies until I get through Noad's book but Sor Op.60 is pretty close to the top of my list so maybe I'll try them together at that point. Can you expand a little on why it's the greatest method ever? Either Carcassi's or Aguado's seems more practical to me. Also: have you looked at the Orphee translation?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:13 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:I must say i'm surprised more people aren't excited by this... maybe everyone else already has seen it?
The reason is probably that those of us with a deep interest in these methods have already translated them for ourselves.

crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:13 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:I must say i'm surprised more people aren't excited by this... maybe everyone else already has seen it?
The reason is probably that those of us with a deep interest in these methods have already translated them for ourselves.
I'm mono-lingual I'm afraid... :oops:

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:20 am

crazyrach97 wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
crazyrach97 wrote:I must say i'm surprised more people aren't excited by this... maybe everyone else already has seen it?
The reason is probably that those of us with a deep interest in these methods have already translated them for ourselves.
I'm mono-lingual I'm afraid... :oops:
Another reason is that many feel that there's little, if any, benefit in understanding how this or that guitarist from the past approached the instrument. I can understand (though not fully support) that point of view in an amatuer player, but how a teacher can disregard such things is beyond me ... far more limiting than being mono-lingual.

Odd thing is that those very same people will often discuss the approach of a modern player in the most minute anatomical detail and at mind boggling length; some threads here are longer than "War and Peace", the reading of which would provide about the same improvement in musicality..

crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:14 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:20 am
crazyrach97 wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
The reason is probably that those of us with a deep interest in these methods have already translated them for ourselves.
I'm mono-lingual I'm afraid... :oops:
Another reason is that many feel that there's little, if any, benefit in understanding how this or that guitarist from the past approached the instrument. I can understand (though not fully support) that point of view in an amatuer player, but how a teacher can disregard such things is beyond me ... far more limiting than being mono-lingual.

Odd thing is that those very same people will often discuss the approach of a modern player in the most minute anatomical detail and at mind boggling length; some threads here are longer than "War and Peace", the reading of which would provide about the same improvement in musicality..
Well, I'm like a little kid Mark. Anything I take on I just want to know it all. I'm listening to Sor and Coste's music and will soon be learning to play some of it so I want to read every word ever written by or about either of them. Which probably makes me annoyingly over-enthusiastic... :oops:

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:11 pm

crazyrach97 wrote:Well, I'm like a little kid Mark. Anything I take on I just want to know it all. I'm listening to Sor and Coste's music and will soon be learning to play some of it so I want to read every word ever written by or about either of them. Which probably makes me annoyingly over-enthusiastic...
I have a student just like you (well, as far as I can imagine through the dodgy medium of anonymous internet gabble); he can be the most challenging person to work with ... and rewarding, engaging, amusing, informative.

Annoying is not a word that springs to mind.

crazyrach97
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by crazyrach97 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:22 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:11 pm
crazyrach97 wrote:Well, I'm like a little kid Mark. Anything I take on I just want to know it all. I'm listening to Sor and Coste's music and will soon be learning to play some of it so I want to read every word ever written by or about either of them. Which probably makes me annoyingly over-enthusiastic...
I have a student just like you (well, as far as I can imagine through the dodgy medium of anonymous internet gabble); he can be the most challenging person to work with ... and rewarding, engaging, amusing, informative.

Annoying is not a word that springs to mind.
Well, that's good to know! Speaking of all this, I just this morning said what the hell and ordered the Orphee edition of Sor's method. Given that Matanya Ophee clearly stated that he took some liberties I'm fully expecting it to be a butcher job, but at the same time I'm just dying to see how it differs from the Merrick translation. As I said, I'm like a bratty kid with this stuff. I want it ALL!

Wuuthrad
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Re: Translation of Coste's Method!

Post by Wuuthrad » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:11 pm

Just wanted to say thanks for posting this- I have saved the file to iBooks, and will be studying it this year as time permits.

I wasn't immediately going to post anything, as I don't have anything really interesting to say regarding their methods, as of yet!

But anyways thanks a lot, I enjoy these kinds of papers.
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

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