Sor, Fernando - op.60/01 Lesson - D01 Video

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Christopher Langley
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Sor, Fernando - op.60/01 Lesson - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:05 pm



:merci:
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by crisscross » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:39 pm

Sounds good, nice collection of guitars and ukuleles in the background!
But isn't that study supposed to be played with alternating fingers of the right hand?
Or is it just an exercise to get to know the notes on the fretboard?

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:24 pm

Thank you,

Yes, I am altering the fingerings to suit my own hybrid play style.

Would you ever have known I had altered the fingerings if you couldn't see me? Is it really a big deal?

I feel like my playing is pretty fluid the way it is now and I don't feel like completely reworking my hands.

People keep bringing it up. It seems like a total non-factor to me. But, I don't want to be ignorantly overlooking one of the points of the exercises.

I've heard mixed things about altering fingerings vs following them. It's certainly more natural to just play and not think, for me.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:51 pm

Please read my comments as coming from someone who is trying to help you.

The reason altered fingerings is a non-factor for you is that your ears have not developed sufficiently within this genre for it to be a factor. Classical music performance is a demanding and subtle art, and it is only the arrogant and the ignorant who think they can bend it to conform to their own standards and experience.

I've read many of your comments on this forum, and you regularly voice your opinion as if you are an experienced player. Show some humility and respect towards one of humankind's greatest art forms, one which has developed over hundreds of years.

As for not thinking when playing...that is the third stage of your evolution as a musician. You might have heard the zen story: To a new zen student, a tree is just a tree. To an advanced zen student, a tree has a whole host of associations. To a zen master, a tree is just a tree. You seem to think you can just adopt the understanding of the master.

This is not a personal attack, as you are not alone, and, if I'm honest, I also went through similar thoughts and attitudes when I was younger - not that it's an age thing.

So, my advice, should you care for it (and I can't think of a reason why you should), is to have no fixed opinions, but enquire, explore, and think, think, think. As Hamlet said, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Buster

Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Buster » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:02 pm

To add to what Rob just said but on a more basic level, yes altered fingers are important as a means of developing speed. So, do it from day 1 so it becomes second nature.

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:09 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:51 pm
Please read my comments as coming from someone who is trying to help you.

The reason altered fingerings is a non-factor for you is that your ears have not developed sufficiently within this genre for it to be a factor. Classical music performance is a demanding and subtle art, and it is only the arrogant and the ignorant who think they can bend it to conform to their own standards and experience.

I've read many of your comments on this forum, and you regularly voice your opinion as if you are an experienced player. Show some humility and respect towards one of humankind's greatest art forms, one which has developed over hundreds of years.

As for not thinking when playing...that is the third stage of your evolution as a musician. You might have heard the zen story: To a new zen student, a tree is just a tree. To an advanced zen student, a tree has a whole host of associations. To a zen master, a tree is just a tree. You seem to think you can just adopt the understanding of the master.

This is not a personal attack, as you are not alone, and, if I'm honest, I also went through similar thoughts and attitudes when I was younger - not that it's an age thing.

So, my advice, should you care for it (and I can't think of a reason why you should), is to have no fixed opinions, but enquire, explore, and think, think, think. As Hamlet said, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I appreciate the response Rob. I was hoping a player of your caliber could chime in. I hesitate to take the advice of someone who's playing I am not intimately familiar with.

I'll bend over backwards following your advice Rob.. I know your playing is absolutely top notch. I'm honored to have you commenting on my video at all.

As far as voicing my opinion like an expert.. Uh, well, I surely never meant to imply I was an expert at any time, as I'm clearly a beginner, I'll have to watch this from here on out. I was probabaly just trying to throw my 2 cents in and keep the forum active. If I just keep my mouth shut.. I will learn less from great players such as yourself.

I'm just trying to keep an open mind, as you suggest and to be the best player I can be. If this is something I need to change, I absolutely want to change it.

So, my big question for you Rob is, should I go back through the d01 materials and rework and pay close attention to all fingerings or should I just start doing it moving forward.. Or is it really okay to take this more loose approach until I start hearing the difference?

Am I understanding correctly that the reason for strict alternstion is that it has to do with an overall consistency in tone?

It helps if I understand a little bit of why to do something.

I have a hard time applying myself without at least a small explanation as to why I'm doing the given task. I'm sure you understand.

Thanks for your response and understanding Rob. I took it all positively. Thanks for trying to help.. I know it's much easier to just stay quiet.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:15 pm

We might all be having some communication breakdown. I could be using the terms incorrectly.

I'm considering altered fingerings to mean fingerings altered from their original suggested fingering. And alternating fingerings to be the go to suggested way of playing as written on the score, i m i m and so on.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Buster wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:02 pm
To add to what Rob just said but on a more basic level, yes altered fingers are important as a means of developing speed. So, do it from day 1 so it becomes second nature.
See, I think you mean alternating fingers. Not altered. The words are too similar. Lol.

I can alternate for speed! I just.. Also rake. And do other things I'm probabaly not apposed to.

It's frustrating trying to do this without a teacher.

I really hate to think that I've spent the last six months doing nothing but engraining poor habits.

I don't look at the sheet music while I play either. Is that a no-no too? Probably. *sigh*

I don't want to start over, but I will if I need to fix these mistakes. Maybe I should wait to find an instructor. I'm such a perfectionist guys, I thought I was doing well. It bothers me that I have been playing wrong all this time.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:41 pm

That's a relief. I thought a Lesser You might complain to a Moderator, but I see the Much Greater You won the day! Good man!

In a way, the edition you use is secondary. Let's go back to absolute basics. A piece in 4/4 timing has strong, weak, strong, weak beats. The downbeat is strong, the up beat is weak. On a more subtle level, the second strong beat (beat 3 of the bar) is a little less strong than beat 1. So, now we can refine it as strong, weak, not quite so strong, weak. Okay, this is subtle, but it is interesting, is it not?

Now look at your fingers. You should have noticed this before :-) but the index finger is shorter than the middle. (Do you see where this is going?). During the Renaissance, such observations were a BIG DEAL. They reserved the shorter (less mass) finger for the weaker beats. Often they alternated thumb (strong beats) and index (weak beats). Ok, this is not the Classical period, but stay with me.

Let's play the first six notes of the C Major scale using the thumb-index alternation. C (strong) D (weak) E (strong) F (weak) G (strong) A (weak). Do it with guitar in hand, not just intellectually. Now, lets extract the strong notes: CEG. Hey, that's a C major chord! Now look at the weak beats - wonder of wonders, it's a Dm chord, DFA.

By articulating the strong and weak beats, we've revealed the hidden harmonies in the scale. Bach knew about this, and exploited it. So did Ragtime composers like Scott Joplin. So did composers players like Dizzy Gillespie. Mozart knew it too. As did Sor.

Try the same Sor study again, playing strongly on strong beats, weakly on weak beats - in fact, overdo it. Play really strongly and really weakly, just to highlight the effect. Then dial it back a bit. Hopefully you will be getting a feel for where in the bar a strong beat is, and notice what chords are being outlined. It should sound more....architectural.

Now, you could argue that you could use just your middle finger on EVERY note, and manufacture the strong and weak beats. Well, that is certainly possible. For a long time modern classical-guitar technique went to great lengths to iron out the differences in mass between the fingers, so that any finger could play any note at any place in a bar, and manufacture the accents. But, man, that's such hard work! Let the fingers do it by allowing their differences to be integrated into the hierarchy of stresses within a bar. Sor knew this. He said he would never use the thumb on a weak beat.

Imagine a violinist who only ever played downstrokes - every note sounding equally strong. That would quickly tire (and he'd soon run out of bow). Strong and weak is light and dark, a chiaroscuro effect, bringing light (or lite) and shade to the music.

The right hand is the expressive voice of the guitar, and is extraordinarily subtle in its shading. But we all have to learn its secrets slowly. Hopefully the above will help a little towards that. It's not a question of feeling comfortable, it's a question of being musical.

I'll stop now! :-)

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:11 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:41 pm

Hopefully the above will help a little towards that. It's not a question of feeling comfortable, it's a question of being musical.

I'll stop now! :-)
Incredibly helpful Rob, invaluable. I was overlooking many things which you have just pointed out. Thank you so much.

I would never report you buddy. Do I really come off this way? Yikes. I have autism spectrum disorder, I know I can be a butthole in person, but I had no idea it was leaking through online. I will try to be more mindful.

Please do call me out at any time Rob. I'm a beginner through and through. Trying to learn and be helpful to others also trying to learn.

This is my first time having this strong weak less strong weak accenting explained to me. I have always heard the tonal differences between the fingers. Particularly the thumb. I had no idea it could be used so artistically.

Really, thanks a ton.. I just wish I knew where to go from here. Do I go back and start paying attention to fingerings or do I simply start paying attention moving forward.

I'm very torn. I guess either way is probably okay. I don't think I'll be happy until I redo my videos and fingerings even though I was really getting excited moving forward in the lessons. Sometimes a little sideways progress is necessary. I can do it.

Thanks a million Rob. I wish I could hang out with you and learn in person. You are such an incredible player and resource. Thank you for your participation around here, you make it a better place.

Everyone has been calling out my wrong fingering, you are the first to explain why it might matter from a musical perspective instead of technical. JUST what I needed buddy. I have seen the light. The logic behind the fingerings suddenly makes sense. Thank you again. I could kiss ya.

Interesting stuff. I look forward to playing around with it.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by RobMacKillop » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:44 pm

Kiss? Yuk! No thanks. Nothing personal, you understand... LOL. Calm down and carry on doing what you are doing. Enthusiasm is good. Thinking things through is good. You will need both.

Sorry to hear about your autism. Many artists are and were (historically) autistic, I'm sure. You will be in good company.

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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:08 pm

RobMacKillop wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:44 pm
Kiss? Yuk! No thanks. Nothing personal, you understand... LOL. Calm down and carry on doing what you are doing. Enthusiasm is good. Thinking things through is good. You will need both.

Sorry to hear about your autism. Many artists are and were (historically) autistic, I'm sure. You will be in good company.
Lol. Rob. Thanks again.

I think many of us around here are on the spectrum.

The ability to obssess and hyperfocus on the tasks which interest me is invaluable.

I can't imagine studying this music (or anything really) unless I was entirely engrossed, I would never get anywhere.

Everything else that comes along with being on the spectrum is less than great..

I'm 26 and still have not even remotely transitioned into the adult world. Yet here I am.. More worried about guitar, something that will very likely never get me much of anywhere.

I need to change my priorities, or at least balance them better, it's just hard when you are hyperfocused on other things.

One step at a time. I'm actually learning a lot of transferable skills via CG. It's not all bad. I just need to make it not my main focus. Hard when it's all I wanna do!

I got way off topic. All this is just heavy on my mind lately.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by BrianTakamine » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:59 am

Hey, your video is not available. can you repost it, or is it just my computer??
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60 Lesson 1 - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:10 am

BrianTakamine wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:59 am
Hey, your video is not available. can you repost it, or is it just my computer??
I took it down after my lazy fingering habit was pointed out to me.

I decided to start over and rework the materials in D01, trying to pay more attention to alternating fingers! So far so good. Hopefully I'll be posting a new correctly fingered version soon.
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Re: Sor, Fernando - op.60/01 Lesson - D01 Video

Post by Christopher Langley » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:14 am



Annnd... Nearly 3 months later, ladies and gentlemen, we have alternation!
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