Are D neck profiles going out of style

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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Beowulf
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by Beowulf » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:59 pm

Christopher Langley wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:34 pm
*Edit*

Moving my post to the more relevant thread.

I agree it seems D shaped necks seem harder to come by, especially at budget level.
Both my Yamahas (not "budget level" mind you) have the D profile. I would be surprised if all Yamaha classicals are not similar.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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joachim33
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by joachim33 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:10 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:25 pm
This may be helpful:

neck-shapes.gif

The "U" shape is often described as an oval and the "D" shape as a flattened oval. The "C" shape curves away from the apex of the curve more rapidly.
Where does this image come from? Is it a specific maker?

For Hanika's take on neckshapes see https://www.hanika.de/en/options/neck-p ... etail.html As you see, there is neck shape and neck thickness.

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pogmoor
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by pogmoor » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:28 pm

Beowulf wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:57 pm
It is remarkable what one can find in the online library!
:lol:
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008), Ramirez (Guitarra del Tiempo 2017),
Yamaha (SLG 130NW silent classical guitar 2014).

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Beowulf
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by Beowulf » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:57 pm

joachim33 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:10 pm
Beowulf wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:25 pm
This may be helpful:

neck-shapes.gif

The "U" shape is often described as an oval and the "D" shape as a flattened oval. The "C" shape curves away from the apex of the curve more rapidly.
Where does this image come from? Is it a specific maker?

For Hanika's take on neckshapes see https://www.hanika.de/en/options/neck-p ... etail.html As you see, there is neck shape and neck thickness.
http://www.kappi.com/blog/2011/12/commo ... -profiles/

I did a search for "Classical guitar neck profiles" and this one seemed to illustrate the differences clearly.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

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joachim33
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by joachim33 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:36 pm

And you found electrical guitars ;)

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dta721
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by dta721 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:07 pm

Neck designs from Roy Courtnall's Making Master Guitars book, as ref in Bert Eendebak web site:
https://www.designofaclassicalguitar.com/neckhead
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Beowulf
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by Beowulf » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:18 pm

joachim33 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:36 pm
And you found electrical guitars ;)
Yup...just the clearest representation of the differences I noticed.
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

Wuuthrad
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by Wuuthrad » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:25 pm

I was reading somewhere a Luthier was commenting on how to make a Classical guitar...

'Leave off the Golpeador and charge more money!"

I would add profiling the neck, rounding or binding the fingerboard, and possibly a few of the other guitar technologies to the list of features that classical guitars are missing for the most part.

Being a guitarist a neck profile is one the first things I look for; I know that I prefer a flatter D or U profile. I'm surprised that some people aren't aware of neck profile!
I've always thought of it first before everything else. It's the one thing to me that makes playing easy or full of finger fatigue, regardless of scale.
"Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honor of a critic." -Jean Sibelius

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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by simonm » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:17 pm

dta721 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:07 pm
Neck designs from Roy Courtnall's Making Master Guitars book, as ref in Bert Eendebak web site:
No mention of profile there.

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dta721
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by dta721 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:36 am

True :oops:

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by zupfgeiger » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:49 am

simonm wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:16 am
Nikos_Greek wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:13 am
Neck profile can be a huge issue for some people. ...
Except builders. :-) In the classical guitar world there is very little discussion about neck profiles and the terminology "C" and "D" are scarcely every used. I have only heard of necks as being "thinner" or "thicker". If you gave me a guitar and asked if it was c or d I would have difficulty - I don't really know what this refers to. I wonder if it is more US concept? Something for the workers in the big box stores to differentiate between different steel string neck profiles?

On the forum here there are rarely discussion about necks, just occasional side comments, so I suspect most players don't care all that much about it or maybe most guitars have basically very similar profiles. The only time I can recall noticing a profile is on a 1984 Granada guitar with long scale and 54mm nut. It "feels" wider and "flatter" but I can say if someone would call it c or d. I quite liked it.

I have 15-20 plans and I can only recall one off-hand that shows a neck profile but I can't say if it is c or d as I don't really understand the concept. Single builders and small workshops build whatever the are used to and I suspect that they mainly think about stability. For a small builder, they set up the neck carving machine and thats it. For a single builder the neck shape is not an issue, it can be anyway the client wants it. So long as the general direction is "less" and there is enough "meat" it is also very easy to reshape a neck. Adding wood is not easy. Refinishing the is an "it depends" type of question. So often changing guitars might be better.

As an amateur every neck I shape is different. I do it by feel. I tend to have relatively thick necks on my guitars so that reshaping them would relatively easy. It is semi-intentional based on the logic that wood is easy to remove and difficult to put back. Curiously one of my "to do" items at the moment is to copy the profile from the only plan I have with a neck profile (A Santos) and to try that on a current build.


If there was a common terminology and some neck standards, it would be interesting to find out what people prefer but for the moment I think the terminology is too vague. Maybe some dealers have an insight into it.

Edit.
My teacher who has lived from guitar teaching and playing for 40+ years said that a concert player practicing 4-10 hours a day will mostly likely prefer a somewhat thicker neck. In his view the thinner neck is more likely to cause injury when someone is practicing that amount. However, profile shape was not mentioned.
There is a similar thread on delcamp on the D or U neck issue where I stated that Fritz Ober builds the most elegant and comfortable U necks conceivable. This was the standard neck for Spanish guitars in early 20th century. Only in the Ramirez era with wider width like 53 or 54 mm thinner D necks came up and fashionable. Personally I don't like thin D necks at all. A well shaped U neck which is not too thick, is much easier to play. Fritz Ober's Torres/Hauser model is a real joy to play. Never saw another guitar which was so easy for the left hand. I regret a bit that I sold it.
Fritz Ober, Torres/Hauser model, 2010, spruce/maple
Giovanni Tacchi, Bouchet model, spruce/BRAZ, 2018

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dta721
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by dta721 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:29 pm

simonm wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:17 pm
dta721 wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:07 pm
Neck designs from Roy Courtnall's Making Master Guitars book, as ref in Bert Eendebak web site:
No mention of profile there.
You are correct! The only info found from this reference is thickness, not profile on these famous guitars. However, when I am able to look up online for a 1937 Hauser Plan, it does have info on its neck profile. (source: www.luthier.gr/index.php?action=dlattac ... tach=42027)
The defense rests :)
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Beowulf
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by Beowulf » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:40 pm

dta721 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:29 pm
You are correct! The only info found from this reference is thickness, not profile on these famous guitars. However, when I am able to look up online for a 1937 Hauser Plan, it does have info on its neck profile. (source: www.luthier.gr/index.php?action=dlattac ... tach=42027)
The defense rests :)
"D"elightful! :wink:
1971 Yamaha GC-10 (Hideyuki Ezaki)
2017 Yamaha GC82S (Akio Naniki/Naohiro Kawashima)

simonm
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by simonm » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:48 pm

So is that a "c", "d" or "u". Looking at the profiles I really can't associate them with letters of the alphabet and the 1st and 9th get profiles look quite different to me. The 1st looks rounder than either there 6th or 9th.

p.s. I believe I have seen that very plan "live" ... one thing that is difficult with them is that there is no attribution about where the information comes from and who drew the plan.

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dta721
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Re: Are D neck profiles going out of style

Post by dta721 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:04 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:48 pm
So is that a "c", "d" or "u". Looking at the profiles I really can't associate them with letters of the alphabet and the 1st and 9th get profiles look quite different to me. The 1st looks rounder than either there 6th or 9th.
...
IMHO, D or U difference is just semantic, and what looks round at 1st fret -from a 2-dimensional drawing, can be optically confusing :wink: .
The Hanika link provided by Joachim33 above shows 2 typical profiles with variations, C and D. In addition, "Exhibit 2" as attached also answers your other question in your own post (similar to this thread): neck is tapered, not straight, as neck width at 12th fret is 62 mm for both profiles.
The defense never rests! :D
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