Identify some Carulli...

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2lost2find
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Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:47 pm

I'm hoping some people familiar with Carulli's catalog can chime in here. My daughter is prepping for a little mini-recital at the local nursing home during which she will play all four of the Carulli pieces in the early stages of Noad's Solo Guitar Playing. I'm trying to create a program with opus numbers/etc but haven't the slightest clue where Noad got any of them from. Does anybody know?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:23 pm

I am guessing that the only source was the method, Op.241.

Waltz (Em) No.21, P.31
Andantino (G) No.5, P.20
Etude (Am) No.19, P.30
Rondo (D) Op.241. No.7, P.22

Usual poor level of editing from Noad of course.

Hope your daughter's performance is enjoyable for her.

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:00 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:23 pm
I am guessing that the only source was the method, Op.241.

Waltz (Em) No.21, P.31
Andantino (G) No.5, P.20
Etude (Am) No.19, P.30
Rondo (D) Op.241. No.7, P.22

Usual poor level of editing from Noad of course.

Hope your daughter's performance is enjoyable for her.
Awesome, Mark... thanks so much. My ignorance of Carulli's overall catalog is something I should attend to one of these days.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:08 pm

2lost2find wrote:My ignorance of Carulli's overall catalog is something I should attend to one of these days.
Lol. I was surprised given your known predeliction for 19th c. methods.

Carulli is worth a second look in my opinion - yes, he churned stuff out in a highly commercial manner so that there is plenty of uninspired material, but amongst it all there are some gems - he knew exactly what he was doing.

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:34 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:08 pm
2lost2find wrote:My ignorance of Carulli's overall catalog is something I should attend to one of these days.
Lol. I was surprised given your known predeliction for 19th c. methods.

Carulli is worth a second look in my opinion - yes, he churned stuff out in a highly commercial manner so that there is plenty of uninspired material, but amongst it all there are some gems - he knew exactly what he was doing.
Carulli is one I never really got around to. I only really know him through the four pieces that Noad used in his book... and I'm sure, as you say, I don't know how they were originally written due to Noad's curious approach to editing. More recently my lady has learned a couple of his sonatinas from a David Grimes book I bought for her birthday and I was struck by how good they are. Nothing earth-shattering but melodic, enjoyable, well-crafted material for the intermediate player in need of performance repertoire. So after I clear a couple of other items off my plate, I've got plans to explore his music in more depth. I'm at a conference today, but if time permits this evening I'll find a fascimle of op 241 and take a peak.

drexparker
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by drexparker » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:00 pm

I would like to ask a basic technical question about the Carulli pieces cited above in Noad's book. Regarding the right hand notation for those pieces, e.g., "Waltz" has right hand using only p i m (not a). I have been training my right hand to use to use a for top string, m for second, i for third, and p for the lower 3 strings -- not without exception of course. There are other notations in this book that tend to omit using a. Advice from experts welcome here. thanks

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:46 pm

drexparker wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:00 pm
I would like to ask a basic technical question about the Carulli pieces cited above in Noad's book. Regarding the right hand notation for those pieces, e.g., "Waltz" has right hand using only p i m (not a). I have been training my right hand to use to use a for top string, m for second, i for third, and p for the lower 3 strings -- not without exception of course. There are other notations in this book that tend to omit using a. Advice from experts welcome here. thanks
Much as I admire Noad's method overall I mostly just ignore his fingerings and always have. I would use i on the 3rd string instead of p in this instance.

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:16 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:23 pm


Usual poor level of editing from Noad of course.

Looking now... this is beyond Noad's usual level of editing weirdness. OK, # 5 in G wasn't changed in a significant way. He put it in a more beginner-friendly time structure that does not materially alter the feel of the piece, and dropped a couple of rests... which I had penciled in anyway not knowing that it's how Carulli wrote it; they just made sense. So no big deal. #21 in Em is sort of Noad's norm; he dropped some bass notes out of this one to make it easier to play. Annoying. #7 is completely off the rails; it turns out I have never played it in it's entirety. Noad dropped a whole section of the piece.

Wow. Now I have to re-learn it. Just cus. Even though I have not played it myself in probably twenty years. I haven't even looked at #19...

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David Norton
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by David Norton » Sun Dec 09, 2018 5:39 pm

In defense of Fred Noad, deceased....

He was a "Product of his Times", as are all of us. The editorial standards of CG music from 50 years ago are acutely different from today's approach. That was an era when Leading Lights such as Julian Bream and Narciso Yepes were making huge editorial changes to classical era scores (Diabelli & Giuliani for Bream, Giuliani for Yepes). Emilio Pujol dropped the whole third section of Gaspar Sanz's "Pavana in A minor", and Andres Segovia heavily modified most of what came across his music stand. So for a Lesser Luminary like Fred Noad (who was targeting beginners and not professionals) to drop a few rests, notes, or even a longer more difficult section of a Carulli Rondo, is nothing awful at all, and is fully in keeping with editorial practices of the CG world of the 1960s/70s.

Now, a question: I can't find these referenced Carulli pieces in my ancient copy of "Solo Guitar Playing". I'm wondering if it's been re-edited? His book "The Classical Guitar" has three of the four cited titles, though the edited Rondo is in C in "The Classical Guitar" and not in D as referenced.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:02 pm

David Norton wrote:In defense of Fred Noad ...
You're correct David, I should have phrased it differently. I will be more kind to him in future.

FN had a gift for gathering together attractive and accessible music which shouldn't go unmarked. I owned several of his volumes myself, including the once ubiquitous Solo Guitar Playing books, and it was through his The Romantic Guitar that I discovered one or two composers for the first time from where I went on to scour libraries far and wide in search of more of the stuff - so easy today with just a few clicks.
David Norton wrote:Now, a question: I can't find these referenced Carulli pieces in my ancient copy of "Solo Guitar Playing".
Here's a mystery - in my hard copy (second edition) I can't find them either but I have a dgitised version which offers:

Waltz p.58/9 SGP 1 and p.15 TCG
Andantino p.59 SGP 1
Etude p.83 SGP 1
Rondo p.110

I have a first edition ... somewhere - different cover as I recall. If I canfnd it I'll check out the differences.

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:11 pm

I too should have phrased things better. Solo Guitar Playing has the best progressive sight-reading practice I have seen anywhere, and the selection of pieces is simply superb... I didn't know a damn thing about classical music going in, and I got hooked by learning to play the pieces in the first half of the book or so. But once I got a little more savvy and started seeking out source material, I've always been baffled by some of his editing choices. To take the rondo in D under discussion... there's nothing particularly difficult about the part he left out. All he accomplished was to make it shorter, NOT significantly easier.

Re: the selection of pieces. I have never had my hands on editions I or II and have no idea what they contained. I learned in the late 90s from the 3rd edition, and I now have the 4th edition which is the same as the 3rd but with few typos corrected and some selections from his anthology series tacked onto the end. I should see if I can get my hands on cheap copies of the first two editions... I'm curious now.

Just an aside... I'm waiting till after her performance to tell my kid that one of the pieces she's playing was revised to the point of leaving a sizable chunk out. I know her... she'll be ****** and want to go back and revisit everything. I don't want her to do that with a gig pending.

2lost2find
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by 2lost2find » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:19 pm

Huh... you can get both 1st and 2nd edition used for much less money than I would have thought. There are new copies of 2nd edition available, believe it or not... but you don't want to know. Still debating whether it's worth the expense to get dated versions of a method I already have.

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David Norton
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Re: Identify some Carulli...

Post by David Norton » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:34 am

I have six books in my library which I consider "Sacred Texts", not for the content as much as for the lifetime associations that I have with these books. Five of these six are by Fred Noad:

"Solo Guitar Playing Vol 1", 1971 edition, the first book I learned the CG with, and which is marked up all over the place;
"Solo Guitar Playing, Vol 2", 1977 edition, not used nearly as much as Vol. 1;
"The Renaissance Guitar", 1974 edition, HEAVILY edited and re-fingered by me to use F# lute-tuning on most of the pieces;
"The Baroque Guitar", 1974 edition, also with lots of White-Out, pen markings, re-fingerings, and so forth;
"The Classical Guitar", 1976 edition, not as well-worn (well-loved?) as either the Renaissance or Baroque books have been;
and lastly an outlier, "Carcassi Etudes - Op. 60", edited by Guido Margaria and published by Ricordi.

Each of these books has life-event associations to it, mostly good and some rather embarrassing moments too. As a result these specific copies of these books have a meaningfulness to me which is far disproportional to the contents.

I also have Noad's "The Romantic Guitar", 1986 edition, which is physically a bit larger than the first three anthologies are. I never really got into that one, it has a few markings but by that time I was done with University studies and had a good idea of what I was interested in musically.

My post #4444, justification I suppose for a few lines of contemplative self-reflection and memory stirrings. Well, enough thread-creep I think......
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT
First person to complete the Delcamp "Let's Learn Sor's Opus 60" project

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