Carbon strings pulling through

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
Baloo
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Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Baloo » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:36 pm

I thought I'd try carbon strings and had got them all on and was tuning up to pitch when the high E snapped, or so I thought. After opening a new pack I realised that actually it had just pulled through at the bridge. I tried again and same thing happened. Is there something different you need to do with these strings? I have a figure of eight at the bridge. Do I just need to add a couple of turns, or is there more to it than that?

TIA

Chuah Hui Hsien
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Location: Penang, Malaysia

Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Chuah Hui Hsien » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:08 pm

You can wipe the E, B, G with slightly moist towel, and melt a ball end at each string before you tie them on the bridge. Carbon strings tend to be more slippery than nylons. That is why I avoid using them on my new guitar.

And you can attach a cardboard lengthwise at the brigde, better to use low tack tape if you have French Polish top.

Tune up your string or bring up the pitch gradually. Check against the ties as you tune. Make sure they didn't slip.
2017 Karel Dedain Spruce/Maple (Torres) 64cm
1998 Yamaha GD 10, Spruce/IRW 65cm
1988 Alhambra AL 8, Cedar/IRW 65cm

Jack Douglas
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Jack Douglas » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:01 pm

Baloo wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:36 pm
I thought I'd try carbon strings and had got them all on and was tuning up to pitch when the high E snapped, or so I thought. After opening a new pack I realised that actually it had just pulled through at the bridge. I tried again and same thing happened. Is there something different you need to do with these strings? I have a figure of eight at the bridge. Do I just need to add a couple of turns, or is there more to it than that?

TIA
Carbon strings are very slippery, therefore they always need extra wraps at the tie block when installing them. For the e string thread the end at least 4 times back through. 4 times for the b and 3 times for the g string. Leave at least an inch and a half of excess and hold your hand on the end as you tighten the string so you can feel it if it starts to slip. Always use a cardboard or other type of soundboard protection and leave it there until you are certain the string tie is secure.
Last edited by Jack Douglas on Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Brune 'Artist' Cedar/Brazilian 1996

Baloo
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Baloo » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:47 pm

Thanks. I melted the ball ends and added a couple of turns - so far so good. Not sure how reliable those ball ends are though, full of crud from the matches. I will hold the string below the match next time. I also just read that you should always wind the strings to the outside of the bobbins. I have been doing it whichever way gives the straightest line to the nut.

I hadn't thought to look for damage, but now I do there are two dings. They're pretty deep but I'm guessing as long as they don't actually go through they're only going to be cosmetic.

vesa
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by vesa » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:52 pm

Hi baloo

No worries.
Almost everybody has done that mistake
when stringing the guitar for the first time with carbon strings.
(how do I know) :D
Mine is 1st and 2nd 4 times around 3rd 3 times
and that is because I have had 2nd to slip too.

Vesa
Vesa Kuokkanen

Antonio Marin nr. 813 1995 (Bouchet)
Vesa Kuokkanen 2016

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joachim33
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by joachim33 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:41 pm

There have been reports that melted ball ends on carbon strings can break of. Also I don’t like open flames next to my guitars. A stopper knot seems the better choice to me.

Chuah Hui Hsien
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Location: Penang, Malaysia

Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Chuah Hui Hsien » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:26 am

Joachim,

Do you have any video clip showing how to tie the "stopper knot"? I would love to learn this method.

I've seen this knots on all the Yamaha guitars,but I couldn't figure out how they made them look so nice.
2017 Karel Dedain Spruce/Maple (Torres) 64cm
1998 Yamaha GD 10, Spruce/IRW 65cm
1988 Alhambra AL 8, Cedar/IRW 65cm

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joachim33
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by joachim33 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:45 am

Chuah Hui Hsien wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:26 am
Joachim,

Do you have any video clip showing how to tie the "stopper knot"? I would love to learn this method.

I've seen this knots on all the Yamaha guitars,but I couldn't figure out how they made them look so nice.
Search for overhand and figure of the eight knot. For nylon 3G strings I use an overhand knot (the figure of the eight gets to large) for the 1E (Nylon and Carbon) I use a figure of the eight. The rest depends on experimentation and the mood of the moment. I have a small pair of plier to tighten them.

decacorde
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by decacorde » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:15 pm

You can tie a knot at the end of the string as in the picture. I do it for all my guitars, nylon, titan or carbon strings.
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Baloo
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Baloo » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:48 am

vesa wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:52 pm
Almost everybody has done that mistake
Good to know!

The strings themselves are a revelation - what a difference. I wish there was some kind of hybrid for the top E, that's all.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by rojarosguitar » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:56 am

Baloo, "been there, got that t-shirt", too. Consider it as the 'beauty mark' left by experience - if you have a ding.

As to the e-string: for me the carbon e is a no-go, sounds ways to bright. Augustin Regal e is the kind of hybrid you look for; also Dogal makes some hybrids. Soundwise is the Aquila New Nylgut also somewhere between Carbon and Nylon, but its white and quite conspicuous. Also nylon strings are not equal. Luthier e-string or La Bella, or Oasis, are all nylon strings on the brighter side of the spectrum.

There are several other methods preventing slippage, but it also depends on whether you have a 6 hole or a 12 hole tie block.
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rojarosguitar
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by rojarosguitar » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:40 pm

I just posted this: https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/ ... 3&t=124635

This would be one possible method to avoid slippage problems with any strings if you have a 6 hole tie block. This kind of string beads heave also other advantages:

- the edges of the tie block are protected against strings cutting in, which is especially a problem with carbon strings, and especially carbon e-1, if you don't have a bone plate or at least bone edges.
- Also the string holes are protected better.
- the breaking angle of the strings is more even across the strings and always the same, when you change strings.

The guitar I have made the string beads for has (as nice as it looks, nonsensically) quite soft edges of the tie block.

On the first pic you can see also an additional protection of the portion of the top directly behind the bridge, in case something should happen. This is simply a piece of iPhone screen foil. It doesn't have any adhesive and sticks just like that to the varnish, if you rub it shiny before putting it on. It can be removed without slightest trace and still protects the top against some of the possible mishaps.

If you have a 12 hole tie block, of course no string beads are needed.
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

My Youtube Channel is: TheMusicalEvents

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Steve Ganz
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Steve Ganz » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:36 pm

Baloo,
Does your bridge have 6 or 12 holes?
Steve

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joachim33
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by joachim33 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:38 am

decacorde wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:15 pm
You can tie a knot at the end of the string as in the picture. I do it for all my guitars, nylon, titan or carbon strings.
Good picture. This looks very tidy.

Baloo
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Re: Carbon strings pulling through

Post by Baloo » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:30 am

Steve Ganz wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:36 pm
Does your bridge have 6 or 12 holes?
6. The melted ball ends are holding so far. I will probably go with a nylon e next time and the e seems to be the main worry so that will solve it really.

Speaking of which:
rojarosguitar wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:56 am
As to the e-string: for me the carbon e is a no-go, sounds ways to bright. Augustin Regal e is the kind of hybrid you look for; also Dogal makes some hybrids. Soundwise is the Aquila New Nylgut also somewhere between Carbon and Nylon, but its white and quite conspicuous. Also nylon strings are not equal. Luthier e-string or La Bella, or Oasis, are all nylon strings on the brighter side of the spectrum.

The strings I have on at the moment are Savarez Alliance normal tension. How would I match a nylon e to the carbon G and B strings? The published tensions for the carbon strings are 5.8, 5.9 and 7.9 kg. Should I look for a nylon e that is about 6kg, or is that going to be too quiet by comparison?

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