Practicing Tremolo

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:37 am

Edgar wrote:My teacher has an exercise whereby I play the tremolo with forte and staccato, alternating to a comfortable, even speed - then back to staccato. I hope this helps.
Well it might, but you don't say whether the exercise has helped you Edgar ... do you have a good tremolo?

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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Edgar » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:42 am

It did help me, I have a good tremolo.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Mar 17, 2019 9:50 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Edgar wrote:My teacher has an exercise whereby I play the tremolo with forte and staccato, alternating to a comfortable, even speed - then back to staccato. I hope this helps.
Well it might, but you don't say whether the exercise has helped you Edgar ... do you have a good tremolo?
Edgar wrote:It did help me, I have a good tremolo.
That's great - so would you outline the procedure in detail? Is it the same as Tennant's successive plant method or something else? e.g. In creating the staccato effect when is the thumb note stopped, and by which digit?

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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Edgar » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:36 am

I'm not too familiar with Tennant's tremolo method, however I just watched his short video on YT re: 'develop your tremolo' and it's essentially the same idea. Practice a PAMI arpeggio using the first four strings, with the thumb playing the bass notes and PAMI on the first string. I agree with his comment that players with weak arpeggios generally have trouble with tremolo (I used to be one :lol: )

Slow - P-A-M-I forte, staccato, lento

Fast - P-A-M-I mezzo forte, even rhythm, allegretto or as fast as possible while maintaining an even rhythm on PAMI.

Guitar Maniac
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Guitar Maniac » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:41 am

Julian Ward wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:43 am
Now as mentined above 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' (Barrios) is on another level again. It is beyond the capabilities of many players but as a tremolo composition it is absolutely untouchable! If you really listen to it, it is just so beautiful and clever. The non tremolo sections are short - but interesting! It certainly is the greatest of them all and one which I will get around to learning one day, but it is on the long side and I know will take a lot of my time up. For those that are not that familiar with it, below is in my opinion the greatest ever performance of it, a truly outstanding rendition from the tiny Kyuhee Park.
In my opinion no one has ever surpassed maestro John Williams in playing this piece, especially the recording from album "From the Jungles of Paraguay"

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Julian Ward
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:21 am

That is just the sort of thing people are 'pre programmed' to say... actually watch it and listen properly. Really properly. There is no comparison. Long gone are the days where we all can only mention Williams and Bream. Park is an incredible player and her tremolo and the range of expression she gets out of such pieces is way beyond anything I have seen and heard from Williams.
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Trev
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Trev » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:06 am

I found one much more moving. I'll leave it at that lol
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SteveL123
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by SteveL123 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:52 pm

Guitar Maniac wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:41 am
Julian Ward wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:43 am
Now as mentined above 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' (Barrios) is on another level again. It is beyond the capabilities of many players but as a tremolo composition it is absolutely untouchable! If you really listen to it, it is just so beautiful and clever. The non tremolo sections are short - but interesting! It certainly is the greatest of them all and one which I will get around to learning one day, but it is on the long side and I know will take a lot of my time up. For those that are not that familiar with it, below is in my opinion the greatest ever performance of it, a truly outstanding rendition from the tiny Kyuhee Park.
In my opinion no one has ever surpassed maestro John Williams in playing this piece, especially the recording from album "From the Jungles of Paraguay"
I am very familiar with John William's playing of this piece. He's the one who introduced me to Barrios's music and I've listened to it hundreds of times if not more.

Just listened to Kyuhee Park's rendition of 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' . She has a fantactic tremolo and amazing technique. Very lyrical. I have not heard the phrase near her beginning played this way before (compare the loops of Williams and Park). Is Park's version a variation that Barrios has written, or is it her own?

https://loopvideos.com/9USYoW_wTT8?from=35&to=48

https://loopvideos.com/fU-RJD9qRlU?from=48&to=65

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Julian Ward
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:53 pm

it is phrased differently. I have never heard two players play it the same, and we have to remember that there is no definitive Barrios transcription, he was said to play his pieces differently each time, or perhaps more accurately, differently over time. I still believe there is no better performance than Park's out there of this piece, it is truly incredible.
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Guitar Maniac
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Guitar Maniac » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:21 am

Julian Ward wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:21 am
That is just the sort of thing people are 'pre programmed' to say... actually watch it and listen properly. Really properly. There is no comparison. Long gone are the days where we all can only mention Williams and Bream. Park is an incredible player and her tremolo and the range of expression she gets out of such pieces is way beyond anything I have seen and heard from Williams.
I don't judge any of Williams's "Sueno en la floresta" renditions based on his reputation, I saw the beauty of this particular record in itself. Of all guitarists I've heard playing this piece, only from Williams I can hear more than two voices from the first tremolo section, and his cadenza is something else (One thing I noticed from his other recording with video available is that he played the main melody of this cadenza section by his thumb instead of i/m rest stroke, which in my opinion emphasized that melody even more)
SteveL123 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:52 pm
I am very familiar with John William's playing of this piece. He's the one who introduced me to Barrios's music and I've listened to it hundreds of times if not more.

Just listened to Kyuhee Park's rendition of 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' . She has a fantactic tremolo and amazing technique. Very lyrical. I have not heard the phrase near her beginning played this way before (compare the loops of Williams and Park). Is Park's version a variation that Barrios has written, or is it her own?

https://loopvideos.com/9USYoW_wTT8?from=35&to=48

https://loopvideos.com/fU-RJD9qRlU?from=48&to=65
I've heard plenty of Sueno en la Floresta renditions and found that this section is played differently by different guitarists, even David Russell played it in his own way where he played "rasguedo" chords instead of normal or broken chords.

Well, since I've gone out of topic recently, back to the main topic. I can tremolo pretty fast and even on 1st string with thumb on 4th to 1st string, but when applying into this piece my tremolo is totally broken. I found it hard to play tremolo smoothly with thumb on 6th and 5th string.

robert e
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by robert e » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:58 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:52 pm

Just listened to Kyuhee Park's rendition of 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' . She has a fantactic tremolo and amazing technique. Very lyrical. I have not heard the phrase near her beginning played this way before (compare the loops of Williams and Park). Is Park's version a variation that Barrios has written, or is it her own?

https://loopvideos.com/9USYoW_wTT8?from=35&to=48

https://loopvideos.com/fU-RJD9qRlU?from=48&to=65
I agree with Maniac [EDIT: and JW] that they are both playing it as written, but balancing the voices differently, for one thing. An enlightening listening exercise--thanks!
Last edited by robert e on Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by robert e » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:18 pm

This thread and Steve's question about approaches to "Un Sueno en la Foresta" inspired me to revisit a variety of John Williams' recordings (thank you, Youtube) with new ears. His tremolo is superb, of course, but now there's something else I notice--that giving voices similar weight and distinguishing them via timbre rather than dynamics is characteristic of Williams' playing in general (in contrast to approaches like Park's in the segment Steve looped, where the highest voice receives distinctly more weight). This for both tremolo and non-tremolo pieces. Do others agree? Am I making this up?

Linearly as well, his approach to dynamic variation seems to me far more restrained than most classical guitarists I hear these days. It's there, for sure, but quite subtle.

Assuming this isn't just my imagination, I'm wondering now how much of this is about Williams in particular vs something perhaps generational (whether fashion, recording technology, or something else).
Last edited by robert e on Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SteveL123
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by SteveL123 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:38 pm

robert e wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:58 pm
SteveL123 wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:52 pm

Just listened to Kyuhee Park's rendition of 'Un Sueño en la Floresta' . She has a fantactic tremolo and amazing technique. Very lyrical. I have not heard the phrase near her beginning played this way before (compare the loops of Williams and Park). Is Park's version a variation that Barrios has written, or is it her own?

https://loopvideos.com/9USYoW_wTT8?from=35&to=48

https://loopvideos.com/fU-RJD9qRlU?from=48&to=65
I agree with Maniac [EDIT: and JW] that they are both playing it as written, but balancing the voices differently, for one thing. An enlightening listening exercise--thanks!
I am not sure if you folks are talking about the same part I was referring to. It is not a voice balance of notes but a different note being played in the melody. It sounds distinctly different (to me anyway). I don't play the piece but playing along by ear on my guitar, Williams plays the sequence as A-A-B-C-D-D-G, Park plays it as A-A-B-A-D-D-G.

I have since listened to 15 pros playing it and only found 3 (Russell, Moller, JiJi) who plays it like Park, the rest (Vandanyan, Hurwitz, Rojas, Yang, Fisk, Goni, Moretti, Romero ....) and the man himself the composer Barrios, plays it like Williams.

This is from Barrios's original recording
https://loopvideos.com/5cQcLC9TkcI?from=35&to=49

I'll try to google the score and point out the note I am referring to later.

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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by robert e » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:58 pm

SteveL123 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:38 pm
robert e wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:58 pm

I agree with Maniac [EDIT: and JW] that they are both playing it as written, but balancing the voices differently, for one thing. An enlightening listening exercise--thanks!
I am not sure if you folks are talking about the same part I was referring to. It is not a voice balance of notes but a different note being played in the melody. It sounds distinctly different (to me anyway). I don't play the piece but playing along by ear on my guitar, Williams plays the sequence as A-A-B-C-D-D-G, Park plays it as A-A-B-A-D-D-G.
I did misunderstand you, Steve. I was so focused on dynamics that the change of one note slipped by me. If you're talking about Measure 13, I've now seen two editions with the latter, while Stover's apparently has the former. I don't have access to Stover's book--maybe it has an editorial note. I wouldn't be surprised if Barrios wrote it one way and played it another way, or several other ways.

The same question was asked in an older thread and unanswered, but a propos our OP, there's much there on practicing tremolo so here's that link: viewtopic.php?t=41185

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Julian Ward
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Re: Practicing Tremolo

Post by Julian Ward » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:58 pm

Barrios wrote almost nothing down.
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