Starting from a kit

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
goinbaroke
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 am

I've gotten my 2 plates planed, scraped, and sanded.
I have my Hauser template on my plates....can I profile down to the profile? I guess I don't know what to do next???
Dick C.

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by Marshall Dixon » Tue May 14, 2019 2:15 pm

goinbaroke wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 am
I've gotten my 2 plates planed, scraped, and sanded.
I have my Hauser template on my plates....can I profile down to the profile? I guess I don't know what to do next???
Dick C.
What I would do is draw the template with one line. With a mechanical pencil so the line is consistent. Then lay a washer down that has an inner and outer circumference difference of 1/8" or so and draw another line around the template with the pencil registering off the inside of the washer. Then cut to the outer line. That gives a little play if you don't get the sides bent to the exact dimension. Of course you'll need to trim the overhang of the top (or back), and this can be done quickly with a knife cutting in the proper direction relative to the direction of the grain of the top.

For me, being able to see the line while sawing is criticle to that accuracy. That means good light, sharp blades and using compressed air to keep sawdust from obscuring the cut.

simonm
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by simonm » Tue May 14, 2019 2:47 pm

Marshall Dixon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:15 pm
...
For me, being able to see the line while sawing is criticle to that accuracy. That means good light, sharp blades and using compressed air to keep sawdust from obscuring the cut.
Agree about light. I usually use an only fashioned fretsaw for this so my "compressed air" is me blowing away the dust as I cut. :-)

goinbaroke
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Thu May 16, 2019 1:34 pm

Thanks for the tip, I'll do it! I assume the top/bottom go 'inside' the curved side pieces, not on top of them? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, want to have a 'box' to soon.
DickC.

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by Marshall Dixon » Thu May 16, 2019 3:08 pm

goinbaroke wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:34 pm
Thanks for the tip, I'll do it! I assume the top/bottom go 'inside' the curved side pieces, not on top of them? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, want to have a 'box' to soon.
DickC.
Wait!

Do you have the rosette in? Is the soundhole cut? Do you have the neck attached?

Refer to Cumpiano and Natelson chapter 9. The sides should rest on the top just inside the line of the template.

One of the things about this book that I have trouble with, is that it covers both steel and nylon build at the same time, and I find the information jumbled up. I think it would be helpful for you to read through this book and highlite what is appropriate for the CG and then make a seperate outline of the steps involved.

There is a sequence to all of this that varies from maker to maker even using the same book. Alot depends on the tools we have or prefer.

goinbaroke
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Location: Colville Washington

Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Thu May 16, 2019 5:36 pm

Thanks Marshall, I haven't done any of those yet, just glued my plates up, didn't put a 'back stripe in, darn it. I'ved planed & sanded them down to .100 and that's all, I'm ready for the next step?

DickC

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by Marshall Dixon » Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 pm

goinbaroke wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:36 pm
Thanks Marshall, I haven't done any of those yet, just glued my plates up, didn't put a 'back stripe in, darn it. I'ved planed & sanded them down to .100 and that's all, I'm ready for the next step?

DickC
Think of the guitar as 4 separate parts. Neck, top, sides and back. Complete each part as much as possible before joining to another.

Before the neck is joined to the top:

The neck blank should assembled and trued, shaped at the heel and the slots cut to receive the sides, and the ramp where the top sits cut to the exact depth of the top. Cumpiano and Natelson to a good job of describing this.

The top should have the rosette in, soundhole cut and braces on.

The rosette channel will be a little dicey to cut on such a thin plate without going through the wood, but it's do-able. It will be proud of the surface and need leveling without taking anything off the top surface. Glue on the braces and the soundhole reinforcement, which all may require two or three steps depending on how it's done.

I don't add a back strip if the 2 pieces come together and I have a hard time seeing the joint. Why tempt fate for a purely decorative element? But if you want to insert a back strip, cut a dado and put it in. Or cut in half and re-join it.

All of this is easier said than done and mistakes will happen. They just need to be corrected and usually can be, without any bad effect, especially early on in the process. When the guitar goes flying out of your hands in the final step on the buffing wheel... well, it's crying time again, as the song goes. :)

I used Cumpiano and Natelson as one reference for my first build and I think they do a good job with the sequence of steps. I needed a benchtop guide for constant reference and as I mentioned, the mingling of the steel and nylon measurements, etc made the info hard to find in the middle of a procedure.

Basically get the neck, top and back all ready to go. Then glue neck to the top. Then the sides onto the neck/top assembly, and then put the back on.

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by Marshall Dixon » Thu May 16, 2019 10:50 pm

I didn't worry about any "doming" during the first build. Nor did I concern myself with neck angle. They (Cumpiano and Natelson) have you contour the important braces by a fraction of an inch, and if you follow those recommendations and the way the have you cut the side slots into the heel of the neck... It will come out alright. But I know firsthand, it is not as simple as it looks drawing all those lines correctly the first time. Especially if the previous cut wasn't exactly square, or if a piece of grit gets under the square, or any of a hundred other things that can go wrong.

Planning out the procedure is probably the most important aspect of the thing, but even the best laid plans gang aft agley. As mentioned above stick with one plan. You can vary a few details, such as the rosette, or the bracing pattern, headstock design, but that's about it. Plus, by sticking to one plan, we all have the same reference point. You mentioned Cumpiano and Natelson and I had good results with that. What I did wrong was try and out-think things and make "improvements" from other sources. As I mentioned, the only criticism I have is mixing both types of guitars. That's why I'd say to carefully highlite the areas of text (thicknesses, measurements, etc) that pertain.

So:
Install rosette and when its levelled and you're happy with it
Cut soundhole.
Install braces. (2 or 3 steps maybe.)

While you wait for glue to dry work on the neck.

simonm
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by simonm » Fri May 17, 2019 9:12 am

Marshall Dixon wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 8:23 pm

Think of the guitar as 4 separate parts. Neck, top, sides and back. Complete each part as much as possible before joining to another.
...
Basically get the neck, top and back all ready to go. Then glue neck to the top. Then the sides onto the neck/top assembly, and then put the back on.
Good summary. However, I do not glue on any braces during the preparation phase. Put the braces, both top and back just before assembly. In a perfect world you should have everything so far advanced that you can close up the box in a 24 hour period. They reasoning behind this is to get the top braced and the box closed under the same humidity conditions. If you have stable humidity this is less of an issue. For a first guitar it is not really an issue. The danger is the if a braced top or back is left standing for a long time, it may end up going concave or otherwise getting deformed. Not a massive problem in itself as you can always remove the braces and try again but it is more work.

goinbaroke
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 pm

Thanks so much to all for all this information, I'm starting on the 'paper' rosette that came with my kit. Still need to make my 'work board' .
Will also draw the 1/8" line on the top and back and cut them out. Then I'll work on the neck, have to glue the 2 blocks to the headpiece first I think.
At 80 I cant do things as fast as I used too.
DickC

simonm
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by simonm » Fri May 17, 2019 7:14 pm

goinbaroke wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 pm
Will also draw the 1/8" line on the top and back and cut them out.
I tend to give the back a tiny touch more, especially at the neck end. Depending on how much the sides taper, the back might need to be a fraction longer than the top. I also use the trick with a pencil and a washer. :-)

goinbaroke
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Fri May 17, 2019 11:36 pm

Guess I'm going to get another set of backs and start over, or else make a ukulele, my profile is to close an undersize a bit! My fault, I jumped ahead of my ass!! Was ready to varnish it before I took it out of the box!! LOL
DickC

ernandez R
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by ernandez R » Sat May 18, 2019 1:27 am

goinbaroke wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:36 pm
Guess I'm going to get another set of backs and start over, or else make a ukulele, my profile is to close an undersize a bit! My fault, I jumped ahead of my ass!! Was ready to varnish it before I took it out of the box!! LOL
DickC
We'll don't toss these parts into the wood stove just yet. Save them to practice each step along the way. Go ahead and practice
Glueing braces and rosette and whatever. Don't wast a lot of time being picky and have fun. Sit back with a beer or glass of wine and bend yr parts this way and that. Snap a couple of braces and sound bars in half jsy to get a feel for the wood and take note of the grain. And tap, tap everything, make each piece of wood ring, I'm not joking, your wife friends and naibors will think you are mad but no worries, only yourself and us here on the Delcamp know it's really true.

I tackled things differently and in a non triditional Spanish way but go over to my build thread and if anything just look at the photos, ignore my hidious spelling, and you will have a better idea of the assembly process, well my process. Forgot the link. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=125050&sid=b2c9ef7 ... e1e5c8b1ea

Disregard the comment above about not worrying about neck angle. In the whole guitar build there should only be one thing you ever need to worry about and it's the neck angle. The rest of your yr first guitar can look like poo but if you get the neck agle right I promise you it will play and sound like a guitar.

Apologies to the guy upthread who mentiond not worrying about neck angle for my contrary comment. But I stand firm on this one point yealding not one turn of luthierie's windmill, not one step of this fine steed Rocinante, holy plagerism, it just dawned on me, the name of my first guitar should be Sancho, Sancho Panza... LOL, RFL... must have been something, ergot?, in that birch I was sanding.

HR
I hate sanding wood or anything else for that matter I just happen to be good at it...

Marshall Dixon
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Re: Starting from a kit

Post by Marshall Dixon » Sat May 18, 2019 2:17 pm

ernandez R wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:27 am
goinbaroke wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:36 pm
Guess I'm going to get another set of backs and start over, or else make a ukulele, my profile is to close an undersize a bit! My fault, I jumped ahead of my ass!! Was ready to varnish it before I took it out of the box!! LOL
DickC
Disregard the comment above about not worrying about neck angle. In the whole guitar build there should only be one thing you ever need to worry about and it's the neck angle. The rest of your yr first guitar can look like poo but if you get the neck agle right I promise you it will play and sound like a guitar.

Apologies to the guy upthread who mentiond not worrying about neck angle for my contrary comment.

HR
HR,

I didn't mean to suggest that the neck angle was not criticle to the construction. What I said was that I didn't concern myself with it. C&N give instructions for setting the steel string neck angle, but for the classical guitar... nada. What I was trying to get accross was that by following the instructions it would work out right. I don't recall even giving it a thought the first time around and it worked out fine. It was about the only thing that did.

goinbaroke,

If you cut the back plate a LITTLE small, it still might work. Remember, you will be putting bindings on and that can cover up a few minor sins.

goinbaroke
Posts: 129
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Location: Colville Washington

Re: Starting from a kit

Post by goinbaroke » Sat May 18, 2019 3:23 pm

I can move my template in a sixteenth on each side, but I planed the plates down to .100 thick so I may not be able to put the rosette level with the top, I guess I can do without the rosette altogether on my first build. I wont have much of a lip on the plates for assembly. I hope the bindings would cover any 'gaps'. This is a real lesson for me jumping ahead. I imagine all of you had problems with your first build.
Thanks for all of you for your patience!!

DickC

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