D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

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Goran Penic
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Goran Penic » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:36 am

Pat Hargan wrote:...
Here are my attempts at this lesson's pieces. ...
:bravo: :bravo: Pat. Very good job. I like all your performances. I think this what you did after two weeks of exercise looks very good.
As for the harmonics sections I think it's best to memorize these parts, so you do not have to look at notes. Even Sagreras is not too complicated to play from memory.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Goran Penic » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:42 am

Eric de Vries wrote:Everybody has been very busy over here. Good work, Marko, Havard and Pat!!
After a holiday of two weeks, I finally have the opportunity to make some recordings and post them. Here's my first try of Carcassi's Etude III.

...]
:bravo: Eric. Very good first try.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:02 am

:bravo: Pat. Very good as usual. I've got nothing to add to your own comments :D :casque:
:bravo: Eric. :casque: The melody stands out perfectly. :casque: Only thing (apart from the hiccups) is that you alternate the arpeggio pattern: pimaim vs pimami (maybe different version like in the Sor / Romance?)
:bravo: Goran. I agree that the harmonics are easier when memorized. Very well played, although your guitar is sounding a bit out of tune.
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:49 am

:bravo: Everyone! Very nice job!

Piero, what is up with your Carcassi recording? Have you added some kind of reverb effect? I don't find the end result very pleasing. Barrios piece is technically very good, but sounds slightly mechanical, and again I suspect that slower tempo would allow you to add some musicality into it.
Håvard.Bergene wrote:I think the main difficulty lies in separating the voices. I think you managed that quite well, but the accompaniment arpeggios (ie not base and melody) could maybe be played softer. May need to be exaggerated to be heard on the recording (as I think you wrote in another post).
:lol: I need to stop writing into those other threads :) I guess part of the explanation may be that I have been working with arpeggio patterns a lot as warmup exercise, and one tends to aim for even volume when doing that, so it easily carries on to playing actual music. Thanks for reminding me to pay some attention to that!
Pat Hargan wrote:I would not worry too much about string noise either. I did not notice it on your video and I feel that it is certainly more important to give the bass note its full value than to cut it off in an attempt to minimise noise.


You didn't notice string noise, because I kept the tempo slow (to minimize the string noise). There also seems to be differences between string brands. La Bella Argento's (which I had on when recording 'El Sueño') seem to be quite sensitive to generate string noise, especially now that the relative humidity has been on the low side, whereas Aquila Alabastro strings that I'm using now are not nearly as problematic in that sense.
Pat Hargan wrote:Here are my attempts at this lesson's pieces. I have finally changed my strings for the first time (after more than a year since I bought the guitar).


What?!? :shock:

Well done with all the pieces! You've still got some problems with the audio. It sounds as if coming from under water. I think it is caused by strong limiting / compression that many of the cheap webcam microphones use internally possibly coupled with low sample rate and/or low bit rate lossy compression. If the audio is coming from the microphone shown in the video, I think there's something odd going on either at 1) the audio recording, 2) the software you use to merge audio and video, or 3) youtube doing some conversion to audio that doesn't end well. I personally use AAC codec @224 kbit/s for audio for videos I upload into youtube, and that seems to work fine. I bring this up, because I find the 'underwater' effect distracting, and the finer details of your playing are lost, notes dying out before their time etc.
Pat Hargan wrote:I also find it difficult to read the music when playing passages with artificial harmonics, because I need to look at the guitar to check that I am over the correct fret with the RH. Another good reason for memorisation, I guess.


Yes, I had to memorize the section with artificial harmonics too. No options really. Not meaning to do so, I ended up memorizing everything apart from bars 28-31, which for some reasons won't stick in my memory (I'm lousy at memorization generally, but perhaps I'm improving).
Pat Hargan wrote:Here is my Carcassi. I have learnt this piece before, from Noad, but I have tried to use the Delcamp fingering and damping. I find the fingering at bar 7 awkward (although no doubt good training, as we have discussed before), but I much prefer the fingering at bar 20 to Noad's. I would like to get some more dynamics into the piece. Does anyone know the meaning of pf at the beginning or rf at bar 6?
I messed up bar 7 in the repeat in my recording, but it's rather strange that I initially found that fingering very difficult, but after some experimentation with index finger positioning it became very easy. I guess it depends on how much your finger joints will flex. I also prefer fingering at bar 20 to Noad's or Henry's.

Regarding pf (piano-forte?) in Carcassi op.60 edited by Paul Henry, it says mf instead of pf, so I guess it means the same, which is in this case simply not soft, not loud, but the volume you usually play at.

rf means Rinforzando, and some discussion about its meaning and difference to sf can be found here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthre ... zando.html

In case the link gets removed:

Code: Select all

Hi everyone. Rinforzando indeed can apply either to a single note or a group of notes. Whether it is one or the other must be determined by the context and placement. Antoine Marmontel, in his "Art Classique et Moderne du Piano" (1876) compared rinforzando to an underlined word in elocution.

Rinforzando should be less stressed than sforzando. Many examples exist that show this distinction clearly, as in the last movement of J.L. Dussek's sonata op. 64 "Le Retour à Paris" (1807). You can find the music on IMSLP. In fact, Dussek used rinforzando more than any other composer. His music is a mini-course in rinforzando! Personally, I believe that when rf is applied to a group of notes, the player should feel free to do whatever he/she likes to underline the music, whether that be crescendo, poco meno mosso, ritardando, tenuto, or just more "squishy". Context will point the way.

Rinforzando is not used as much these days. Its "golden age" was in the early 19th century, when the pianoforte (fortepiano) was still a new and developing instrument, with new expressive possibilities. Many editors, when issuing a new edition of an early work, replace rinforzando with either a sforzando or a crescendo. Marmontel, the man who gave such a good description of rinforzando, did this! This diminishes the imaginative possibilities for expression by pianists, and is not a constructive practice. However, others who came after Marmontel, such as the Farrencs in their "Trésor des Pianistes", remedied this by following early editions, and keeping the rinforzandos.
I haven't worked with Sagreras, Paganini and Saltarello virtually at all. I just don't find them very interesting. Saltarello would be interesting played at the tempo and way Professor Delcamp does, but at the moment that's too much work for me, so I'll pass.

Goran, your Sagreras was perfect despite the tuning issue Håvard mentioned! I agree about the Carcassi study tempo. With more speed it's difficult to play expressively, and it easily sounds rushed. Perhaps in a few years with better skills that won't be the case. Thanks for those links! I had already seen Scott Morris' lesson, but the one with Denis Azabagic was very interesting!
Håvard.Bergene wrote::bravo: Eric. :casque: The melody stands out perfectly. :casque: Only thing (apart from the hiccups) is that you alternate the arpeggio pattern: pimaim vs pimami (maybe different version like in the Sor / Romance?)
Let's say if someone were to post a recording using fingering from another source than Delcamp, that someone could change some of the arpeggio patterns and a bass note (bar 10) to fool youtube's copyright claim system. Of course it would be way easier just to use Delcamp fingering and refute any possible claims based on that. But in theory you could do that... :applauso:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Goran Penic » Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:33 pm

Håvard.Bergene wrote:...
:bravo: Goran. ... although your guitar is sounding a bit out of tune.
:merci: Marko and Håvard. The problem is that I have to put new strings.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Pat Hargan » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:58 pm

:bravo: Eric, lovely playing on the Carcassi. The only thing I would suggest is that you try M. Delcamp's fingering at bar 20, so that you don't have to change position for bar 21 and risk cutting the F# short because you catch it with other LH fingers.

:bravo: Goran, your Sagreras is excellent, very clear harmonics. Thanks for the links to the Carcassi tutorials. :merci:

Marko, thanks for all the suggestions and information. :merci: I don't understand the audio problem you mention, it sounds ok to me. I guess it's something to do with uploading to youtube, because I'm recording with a decent mic and audio interface straight into iMovie, but I'm really not a video expert. It's funny you should mention youtube's copyright robot, because I got an infringement notice on my Carcassi video, even though it seems still to be accessible.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:14 pm

Pat. You may dispute the copyright. Just say you use Prof. Delcamp's arrangment (http://www.guitareclassiquedelcamp.com/ ... cassi.html), which is based on public domains sources. I've gone through all my copyright infringements for the Delcamp lessons, and disputed everything, and everything has been released (... oh I just checked, and the copyright notice has come back on Melodia de Sor. I'll depute it right away :) )
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:54 pm

Yup, I also got the copyright claim for Carcassi study. If you don't dispute it, you will get popup ads on top of your video (as it seems you already got for your Carcassi), and the company holding the copyright claim will get a small share out of the advertisement money. Although it's not a big thing, I always dispute the claims out of principle. I have no problem Youtube making money with my videos in exchange for the service they provide, but the copyright claimers are no more than bunch of leeches in my opinion. I don't even bother to explain about Delcamp in my dispute. I just select the 'public domain' option and submit with the preset text.

Pat, I think I now know what bothers me in your audio. There's a 'Reduce background noise by' checkbox in the Enhance section of the Audio Inspector in iMovie. Your audio sounds just like it has gone through a noise filter. Could you see if you have that on? In my opinion it makes the audio sound unnatural, but if it doesn't bother you, and if you really have lots of background noise, I guess I can live with the loss of higher frequency details and the phase distortions it causes :lol:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Pat Hargan » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:55 pm

Thanks for the info about youtube, Håvard and Marko. I will certainly dispute their claim. It is ridiculous that some publishers are trying to make money out of music that was written in the 19th century. :roll:

Marko, thanks for your iMovie tip but on the version I'm using I don't see any enhance section or option to reduce background noise in the audio inspector. The only thing I did to the audio before exporting the movie was normalisation in order to make it easier to hear, but that should not cause the artefacts you describe. I will try to investigate further.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by EricKatz » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:34 pm

When you want to hear a beautifull rendition of Sueno de la Munequita, just google "Enno Voorhorst Live @ Gitaarsalon Enkhuizen". At 9:42 - 12:09 you''ll find a recording of this piece. Voorhorst is professor at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague (The Netherlands) and a well known Barrios interpreter.

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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Goran Penic » Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:08 am

:merci: Pat.
I changed the strings. This is the latest series D'Addario Pro Arte Dynacom EJ46TT (with Titanium trebles). Still have to wait for it to stabilize. It seems to me that they are not bad. It's a little different feel under the fingers. A bit like that adhere to the fingers of the right hand - is not that just sliding under the nail. An interesting feeling.

Here is Carcassi:
[media]https://youtu.be/WqxHrqvlzeQ[/media]
:merci: for watching.
:bye:
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Marko Räsänen
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Marko Räsänen » Tue Jan 07, 2014 7:57 am

:bravo: Goran!

You played the piece very well, and with good tempo (although I thought you said you preferred a slower version). New strings are sounding nice!

I have two points of criticism: The melody notes should be louder, or otherwise emphasized, so that they stand out more. You possibly need to play the accompaniment softer. The second thing is very minor (more like nitpicking). In bar 22 it sounds to me that you didn't damp the bass note in the middle of the bar where there is a pause in the bass voice. It could have been sympathetic ringing as well from the 5th string.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Goran Penic » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:35 am

:merci: Marko.
Marko Räsänen wrote::bravo: Goran!
... (although I thought you said you preferred a slower version)...
:) You're right, but this is one version that I did most suitable for publishing.
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Pat Hargan » Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:07 pm

Excellent playing, Goran :bravo:
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Re: D05 Classical guitar lesson 05

Post by Håvard.Bergene » Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:41 pm

:bravo: Goran. Really enjoyable, and nice crisp sound from new strings :D
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