Tarrega numbering

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ChasW

Tarrega numbering

Post by ChasW » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:44 pm

Hello everyone,

It has been some time since my last post. I think so long that perhaps my account was deleted. I tried to e-mail the administrator through the failed login interface and the website stated that all e-mail functions were disabled.

Anyhow this is a link to my original introduction under my same account name.
viewtopic.php?t=4185

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the numbering is that the Royal Conservatory of Music books, as well as others, are using when referring to some of the Tárrega studies. I have seen various other sites use this numbering but I cannot seem to find the actual studies in any of my older compositions I have for Tárrega.

For example, the 17th study of the Royal Conservatory of Music Grade 3 book is Francisco Tárrega's study in C Major, but referred to as TI ii-26.

Perhaps somebody might shed some light on what catalog or publication this numbering system is referring to.

Thank you and best regards,
Charles Wilkins

RobMacKillop
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by RobMacKillop » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:28 pm

Charles, I completely understand your confusion. I think it is a ludicrous situation we have, where possibly the most famous CG composer ever does not have a works number for each piece he wrote. I know it's a minefield for researchers, but it's about time somebody sorted it all out. But who would do it?

ChasW

Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by ChasW » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:33 am

Hi Rob,

You make a good point. I am not sure who would, or even could do it. Over the years I have seen many collections of works, but none that actually have a complete set of Tárrega works that include all of the pieces that modern publications attribute towards Tárrega having actually personally composed.

There might be many reasons for this. One might be, for example, any case where Tárrega is known to perform a piece, but it is not known if he was the original composer. He may be credited in a modern publication by having his name at the top of the score, which is not entirely misleading since the music may have been by played Tárrega.

Like Sor/Coste for example, I suspect there are cases where students authored or at least revised some of the studies, technically making them the compiler or arranger, or perhaps even the original author of a Tárrega style composition.

If we look at TI ii-26 as a simple example, I have at least 3 different publications with this as Study in C major, but no Tárrega collection books I have contain this Study.

I would be curious if this book has it or uses the RCM numbering.
https://www.stringsbymail.com/karl-sche ... -6379.html

If my research doesn't produce an answer regarding TI iii- / TI ii- / TI i- numbering, I will likely buy a copy and continue on from there.

My only real fear of course is a purchase that leaves me with new questions and no new answers.

RobMacKillop
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:02 am

I haven't seen that book, but it is quite old now, and not likely to be authoritative.

Another issue you touched on is the editing of Tárrega's scores. Right from his publication until the present there have been self-appointed editors, with different interpretations they think are more important than the composer's. Therefore we have glissandi removed, fingering changed, sometimes even accidentals added or removed. It's difficult, if not impossible, to get to know exactly what the maestro wrote.

Which is why I welcome the publication of the Leckie Manuscripts by Brian Whitehouse. I can't provide a link to a commercial publication, but you can search for it. From the publicity material:

"The facsimiles presented here are of manuscripts which were all beautifully handwritten by Francisco Tárrega, the most significant guitarist-composer of the late nineteenth century, for his student and patron, the Englishman, Dr Walter James Leckie. The significance of these scores, published here for the first time, cannot be overstated; with regard to both technical and stylistic matters it was Tárrega who laid the foundations for all future composers and arrangers for the instrument.

In their original format they represent some six hundred and fifty-four pages of the maestro's work and their reproduction, displaying markings by both Tárrega and Dr Leckie, allows a fascinating insight, at source, into the minds of maestro and student. In particular the attention to detail in the fingerings is quite astonishing."

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bacsidoan
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:56 am

It appears to be a good book. One hundred sterlings is a pretty steep price though.

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bacsidoan
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:57 am

Double post.

simonm
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by simonm » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:37 pm

bacsidoan wrote:It appears to be a good book. One hundred sterlings is a pretty steep price though.
Hmm … 650 pages vis 20-30 Starbucks coffees …. :mrgreen:

We are just spoiled with "free" music.

Luis_Br
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:43 pm

Here you find some of the original manuscripts for free:
http://www.theguitarmuseum.com/f_music.htm

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bacsidoan
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:44 pm

Sie haben Recht. I already bought the book.

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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:57 pm

I have it too. I consider it a "must have" for serious Tárrega scholars. But for the general player who is interested in what Tárrega saw published, then that volume of facsimiles of the earliest publications is the next best thing: :The Complete Early Spanish Editions" (do a search for it).

And for those who don't care what Tárrega wrote or saw published...why are you reading this? ;-)

ChasW

Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by ChasW » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:03 am

The Complete Early Spanish Editions I knew about. The Tárrega Leckie Manuscripts by Brian Whitehouse I did not. I believe the later is more authoritative than most of what I have. Thank you for pointing these out.

Does anybody know if either publication has an Estudio en do mayor or Study in C major, with or even without a TI ii-26 designation? Admittedly my curiosity is getting the best of me here since I see the Study in E minor in several Tárrega composition lists and Tárrega specific collection books, but not the C major aside from general classical guitar collection books.

Sheet Music Plus has a song list for The Complete Early Spanish Editions, but I know from other books that I have that sometimes their lists are not complete. For the Tárrega Leckie Manuscripts I cannot find a composition list.

I remain optimistic I will find a source for the study in C and perhaps even that elusive number that RCM has for it.

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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by RobMacKillop » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:28 am

I don't see any Study in C or Do in the Leckie mss.

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Tony Hyman
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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by Tony Hyman » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:41 am

If Ive double posted here I appoligize.But just who holds the publishing rights on Tarrega's music.It's been long since his death.So I suppose any person can take it upon himself to compile a numbering system ' the same as the BWV system which was devised later in Bach's works.Unless their is some "esoteric" political reason dragging matters out.

According to "Segovia the Early Years" there was a lot of jealousy and competition surrounding manuscripts during and after the Maestro's death in 1910,espesially between Tarrega students "Tarregasphores" as Segovia called them who guarded the music as "Crown Jewels" not meant for the untrained, uncultivated "fingernail" fraternity.

That political scenario might have something to do with the lack of numbering today.Who Knows? :wink: :wink:

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Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by jdykes » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:45 pm

A Tarrga Collection, was published (copyright 1980) by Dorsey Bros. I don't know if the publication is still available now or not but it presented 21 pieces from the Walter Leckie Manuscripts - original works, transcriptions and arrangements. There was an introduction, photographs and a few pages of Tarrega facsimilies. All together there were about 100 pages. Almost all the pieces published in the collection are different (in some way - some more than others) than what is the basis for most later publications which in turn are usually very close to what was originally published (and now available in The Complete Early Spanish Editions).

I am very curious about the Whitehouse book but anyone ordering should be aware it is 236 pages in length, not 650 pages. Perhaps the 650 original pages are fully contained somehow within the 236? Does anyone know the actual contents of the Whitehouse book - number of pieces (ideally which ones) and how much of the book is text vs. scores?

Just as an aside...Carlos Bonell recorded a fine album around the time A Tarrega Collection was published. Just works from the Leckie Collection if I recall correctly.

ChasW

Re: Tarrega numbering

Post by ChasW » Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:03 pm

... suppose any person can take it upon himself to compile a numbering system ' the same as the BWV system which was devised later in Bach's works.Unless their is some "esoteric" political reason dragging matters out.
which calls to question- Does there even exist a reasonably complete or authoritative list of Tárrega pieces including the non-performance pieces (studies). I've seen quite a few lists, but none appear to be identical. I am guessing that this is why numbering becomes a challenge. Even aside from any political reasoning, who wants to try number every piece absent clarity of ownership.

Clearly the RCM has reference to some Tárrega related catalog. Here are the pieces from their Classical Guitar Series:
Study TI ii-40 Grade 1
Study TI ii-26 Grade 3
Lagrima (Tear), Prelude TI i-17 Grade 4
Pavana Grade 6
Adelita (Mazurca) Grade 6
Prelude TI i-9 Grade 6
Marieta (Mazurca) Grade 7
Vals en re Grade 7
Study TI i-12 Grade 7
Mazurca en sol Grade 8
Prelude TI i-4 Grade 8

but as you can see, not all pieces have a TI number, but perhaps the catalog numbers they are using are exclusive to preludes and studies.

Funny how a few numbers so greatly entices me into wanting to see a complete listing :)

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